Greg, you're so right. It definitely appears as though I'm trying too hard to minutely define the plan of salvation. I'm sorry. I've been trying to stick to what the Bible and the SOP say about the subject, but I think I might get carried away with long posts.

But do you think our basic differences fall under the category of splitting hairs? That is, I believe self must completely die before we can experience rebirth, and I seem to hear you saying that we must be born again before we can die completely to self. Did I get it right? If so, can we use 1 Peter 2:1,2 to examine our differences? So far I haven't been able to get anybody to comment on this passage. Would you be willing?

Gary, again thank you for clarifying what I've been trying to say. It's very helpful when two people saying the same thing express it from different angles. Thank you.

Zyph, we're just not clicking, are we? I'm so sorry. It really does cause me much sorrow and pain to be so out of sorts with you. I value our friendship, and I so desperately want to be on the same playing field as you. But we're worlds apart when it comes to our understanding of the miracle of rebirth and conversion.

The reason I said that strong willed people can overcome many of their defects of character without cooperating with the influence of God is because I myself lived my life that way for a long time. By sheer force of will power I stopped lying, cheating, stealing, using drugs and booze, and may other sinful behaviours. Much in the same way the apostle Paul did. Rom 7.

But when I discovered the truth about conversion, the truth as it is in Jesus, I experienced Jesus in a new and exciting way. It was then I realized all my self generated victories were nothing more than deceptions and, as you noted, filthy rags. But I doubt that if you had known me before my real conversion you would have suspected my life was a lie and a deception and nothing but rags.

My point is this: only God knew the difference. To the onlooking world my life was an excellent example of what it meant to be a Christian. Of course it would have been wrong for anyone to judge my motives, since my fruit had the appearance of being genuine, though in reality I can look back now I testify that I was nothing more than what Morris Venden calls a "good liver."

But I can tell the difference now. Thank you Jesus. The joy and peace of mind I have now is like honey compared to the vinegar I once thought was sugar. Praise God. Jesus has set me free, and I love it.

Mike, as you will see in the post on another thread, I had "kudos" to give you, and,I thank you for this last post. I will address 1Peter 2:1,2 very briefly, for I don't even know if this is right, but seem so to me. Don't you believe this is speaking of what Jesus wants us to do at the conversion experience, also, every day following it? At conversion, and afterward, I was a "newborn babe," and could digest ONLY the milk of the word. Now, had I stayed as a newborn babe all my life, I sure would have never grown in Christ! But, now, He expects more of me, as to what I can digest, and if I am growing in Him!

Zyph may not be as far away from the two of you meeting your minds as you feel. I hope not, she is a lovely Christian woman.

I am just praying daily for more unity on this board, but NOT because we give up our beliefs, but, because we have shared them. I see no reason why we cannot even disagree, and keep on discussing, AND praying (prayer before posting really can change an intended post; I know!!) and working toward an understanding of each other's thoughts. After all, we are all planning to live in the same neighborhood one day soon, right??!!!

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Dora ]

If one lives a good life without Jesus the emotional and spiritual atmosphere of the carnal mind still broadcasts its message. When Jesus comes into the heart then the life radiates Christ. That is why it is important to have Jesus, first, formost, and always.

Mike, I went back a page and reread several posts. It seems to me that Zyph, Greg and I were all saying about the same things, in a slightly different way. And, in your last post, did you mean that your understanding has changed? Or did you mean that we just weren't "getting" what you have been saying? I think we all agree that if we do not have a "heart" experience when we turn, or are converted, it is worth nothing. Is that what you are saying?

Dora, thank you for the kind kudos. I love kuddies. And yes, I too believe Zyph is a fine Christian lady. I think she knows how I feel about her. I really do value what people think and say on this forum. And as you say, I hope we can continue to study even if we never do agree on every point we discuss. I have no doubt each one of us are sincerely striving to stay in tune and in touch with Jesus. Who can resist Someone so lovely, eh!

What I meant about our basic differences is that we are fundamentally worlds apart when it comes to the timing relationship between 1) when we cease from sin, and 2) when we experience the miracle of rebirth. Compare 1 Peter 4:1,2 and Eph 4:20-24. Again, I'm sorry I'm not in a place where I can post these quotes here and now.

I haven't changed my understanding on this point. And I'm sorry for whatever I wrote that gave you that impression. I'm still trying to implement Gary's counsel in that regard. It's just that I want so much to be in harmony with my brothers and sisters that I look for ways to be agreeable, and sometimes it comes across as sounding like I agree with points I really don't agree with. So again, I'm sorry.

I still very much believe that before we can be converted or born again we must first cooperate with God in crucifying our defects of character as He reveals them. Once we complete this process, which depending on the person may take many months to many years (the difference has to with how willing the person is to progress at God's pace), but if and when we complete this process, then receive the implanted sinless seed of the new man, which comes complete with all the attributes and fruits of God.

Of course we are not born again fully mature and seasoned saints. But neither was Jesus. As a babe He too had to grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. But here is where we differ. I believe we begin at conversion where Jesus began at birth. That is, just as Jesus began without sinful defects of character, so too born again believers do not begin with moral imperfections. On this point we disagree.

Your comments on 1 Peter 2:1,2 do not reflect a literal reading of the words Peter employed to convey his thought. And there are times in Bible study when we cannot read a passage literally, for to do so would yield absurd conclusions. However, I personally do not believe we need to spiritualize or deviate from a literal rendering of this passage, since it in no way disagrees with the entire testimony of the Bible regarding the miracle of rebirth.

I very much appreciate you taking the time to address this passage, and I hope you don't mind me asking you to answer the following question - Why can't we read 1 Peter 2:1,2 just the way it is written? A literal reading of this passage clearly says that a newborn babe in Christ is someone who has laid aside all their moral defects of character and are free from sin. Is there any reason why we can't take this passage just as it reads?

Thank you Mike, for all the energy and time you have invested in this topic, and also in trying to explain it again to me. I have the Bible open before me now to 1Pet.2:1-3. You see, I think I AM reading it as is written, and at the same time applying it to ALL I know of that experience, namely my own Testimony. Yes, when I was converted, (turned,made the decision for a life with Christ,) at that moment I was accepted, and yes, forgiven, and He had taken my sins. But, Mike, I couldn't change my way of thinking or being, before coming. If I could why would I
even NEED Jesus? He says, "come unto me, all ye that are weary and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matt.11:28. It seems that it is such a simple thing, just come. And come tomorrow, and keep coming. And where is that quote, "If you will seek the Lord and be converted every day....?" and, I haven't had time yet,to look up very many of the quotes in the index on conversion, but, there are MANY! I want to look up 2T505, for it says something like ..."conversion is not completed until Christian character is perfected."

No! No! Mike, I would never argue to try to prove MY point, I just thank you for causing me to look deeper into this topic for myself. As you have said, that is what true study is all about. Can you imagine the early pioneers? They didn't have an index, or Testimonies!! They just studied and prayed. Seems to me, it can be no less of importance to me to know what is TRUTH! Not because my pastor,or anyone said it; only, Thus saith the Lord! And, no, I really didn't think you had changed your mind, but, I have learned it is best to just question, if I am unsure about anything. But, I pray that even at the chance of someone misunderstanding your meaning, that you never change as to your courtesy and tact, and the Christlike way you present your thoughts. I will finish looking up many of these quotes and texts, and finish the chapter on Nicodemous, and get back. OK? May God Bless.

Mike, I have cut this from the other topic, which is the same. These are your words:

"We begin at conversion where Christ began at conception."

And from this topic:

" I believe we begin at conversion where Jesus began at birth. That is, just as Jesus began without sinful defects of character, so too born again believers do not begin with moral imperfections."

You agree that you were not perfect when you gritted your teeth and overcame your defects. (You didn't. You just stopped acting out. Your mind was still sinful. Your words again: "But when I discovered the truth about conversion, the truth as it is in Jesus, I experienced Jesus in a new and exciting way. It was then I realized all my self generated victories were nothing more than deceptions and, as you noted, filthy rags. But I doubt that if you had known me before my real conversion you would have suspected my life was a lie and a deception and nothing but rags.")

You agree that it was after conversion that you realised a different experience. You had habituated yourself to act like a Christian, now you had become one, you didn't have as many habits to overcome. The momentum of overt bad behaviour was already diverted through practice, now your mind matched your profession.

Weak people know they cannot grit their teeth to act like a Christian. They are not self-deceived by the fact that they can perform correctly, even though they aren't pure in heart. They give themselves to the Lord, with all the momentum of sin - which Jesus never had, I'd like to remind you - and the Holy Spirit begins the lessons of depending on Christ in order to overcome. Their victories are not outward show, but real inner change.

Of whom do they love to speak? Where are their thoughts? One topic swallows up all others. Christ, our Righteousness.

How do they know when they are perfect? Most men who have come into the presence of God have fallen on their faces, consumed with the knowledge that they were sinful, and feeling like they would die in the presence of holiness. No matter how righteous they have been, this has occurred. Even after conversion. This is moral defects they felt - not that their flesh was sinful.

To call the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a man by any other name is dangerous, and you don't understand how discouraging your theories are. You have not offered hope, but a system of getting good enough to be converted. You say you're talking about a promise, but in the next breath, you portray total moral perfection as the only evidence of conversion.

Your experience is yours, not mine. You can not say that because you came to the Lord in a certain way, that is how it should be for others. There are many bible texts which can be compared, bandied around, and used in certain ways to state opposing ideas. But the Protestant method of bible study is to gather ALL the texts on a subject, look at the context, and present all facets as part of the truth, with texts qualifying each other. Moral perfection is available, as some of your texts indicate, but the experience and growth process of some people differs, with God tending them like trees, gently training them into new shapes, and digging the soil. A constant symbol used regarding the Christian life, is the growth of plants. The wheat and tares - who aren't recognisable as EITHER, initially; the parable of the sower; the description of the growth of a plant, ending in maturity. Plants begin as seeds, but once they are planted, they begin to grow, and continue to change progressively. You can't ignore these examples. You can't interpret them as applying to perfectly intact people learning to be more intact.

I may have expressed myself badly here, and waffled a bit. I make no claims for myself, and I have no axe to grind with you. But I am telling you my honest feelings when I say that I have almost thrown the whole thing in when I was beginning to be influenced by your posts. This is not personal criticism, and you may interpret this as you wish (meaning that you may believe that this is because I am not willing to give up sinning). But when Jesus is lifted up, and the promise that He will complete the good work He has begun in me is emphasised, I have hope, and I am encouraged to come closer, and to seek His companionship. If I am misled, so be it. But I am sharing with you my experience, in the hope that you will be careful not to discourage others whose faith is as weak as mine.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: zyph ]

Dear Zyph,
In my reasoning, that was an excellent post! Well thought out, clearly and well defined, and tactfully and courteously stated. I have to say I agree with your way of thinking about conversion. Outward acts do not always insure that the heart has been changed. But, WHEN the heart has been changed,(turned to Jesus,) what outward acts the Holy Spirit activites us to do, then, we can see the true FRUITS of the spirit.
And, as we come to Him, and KEEP coming and having that daily interaction, that daily friendship, we are changed by beholding; by being in His Presence, although it is more often over a period of time,(as fast as we allow God to lead us, or as fast as He knows we can go, as little children.) And, as the mother hen cares for her chicks, and teaches them to eat small seeds at first, rather than try to gobble large grains of corn!!

Okay. It is clear we do not see eye to eye regarding the timing and the extent of conversion. I think it's safe to say that our differences are as follows:

1. I believe conversion is a process and a product. During the process of conversion the Holy Spirit influences us to lay aside our defects of character. He exposes them no faster than He is able to influence us to lay them
aside. If we cooperate with the influence of the Spirit of God and lay aside all of our imperfections we will eventually experience the miracle of conversion. This happens the moment the Spirit exposes our last defect and we lay it aside.

2. At this moment God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God and all the fruit of the Spirit. From this point onward the Spirit empowers us from within to imitate the example of Jesus, which means we spend the rest of our lives maturing in the fruit of the Spirit. If we fall back into sin after we've been born again, the Spirit of God impresses us to receive the gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and gives God the legal right to pardon us and to restore us to the mind of the new man.

3. But I hear the rest of you saying that we receive the product of conversion first and then we begin the gradual process of laying aside our defects of character. And then after years of sinning and repenting we evenutually cease from sin.

I'm not sure why this point of view is more encouraging than the one I have been advocating? The idea that it will take the rest of my life to cease from sin sounds depressing to me. I hate sin. And if I have to spend the rest of my life sinning, then I don't want to be a Christian.

But if you're not saying it will take God the rest of my life to empower me to cease from sin, then what are you saying that is different from what I'm saying? Does it have to do with the blessed assurance of salvation? If so, then please rest assured that I believe we are saved the moment we begin the process of conversion. Our
salvation does not depend on whether or not we complete the process or receive the product. If we should die before the Lord can lead us to completely crucify self, our salvation will be based on the life we would have lived had we not died prematurely.

Please show me from the Bible where we are born again first and then we spend the rest of our life laying aside our sinful defects of character until we finally cease from sin. If this idea of conversion is what it means - By beholding Christ we become Christlike - then it should be easy to show from the Bible and the SOP.

Dear Mike,
I thought the post that Greg laid out for us in the thread, "Sinners & Saints" couldn't be plainer, if anyone wants to look at it. So, I feel there is really nothing that I, with my more limited knowledge of the Bible and SOP could add to it. What I think doesn't really matter,though, unless it goes exactly with what the Bible and the SOP say. I do believe, though, I am in harmony with these sources, as far as my knowledge goes.

The one thing I could suggest, concerning your first sentence after your #1 in the above post, is to read pp 172& 173 again in DA. I couldn't even BEGIN to explain conversion better than what is explained here. May God bless and direct your thoughts in whatever you study. My prayers are with you, and for you.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Dora ]