Mike's words: "Please show me from the Bible where we are born again first and then we spend the rest of our life laying aside our sinful defects of character until we finally cease from sin."

I wouldn't try, because those are your words, and your thoughts, not mine.

Can you possibly see an alternative which fits with all the scriptures and quotes?

I'll give you a clue: What is sin?

As I searched this SOP phrase "sanctification is" and got 175 hits. The quotes I am posting is just the start.

I found this interesting SOP quote about conversion & sanctification. It seems to say to me the conversion is coming to & surrendering to Jesus, and that moral perfection is the discipleship journey with Him made possible AFTER coming to Him.

"The Scriptures plainly show that the work of sanctification is progressive. When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. Now he is to "go on unto perfection;" to grow up "unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Says the apostle Paul: "This one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." [PHIL. 3:13, 14.] And Peter sets before us the steps by which Bible sanctification is to be attained: "Giving all (A.)diligence, (B.)add to your (C.)faith (D.)virtue; and to virtue (E.)knowledge; and to knowledge (F.)temperance; and to temperance (G.)patience; and to patience (H.)godliness; and to godliness (I.)brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness (J.)charity. . . . If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." [2 PET. 1:5-10.] {GC88 470.1}

(A.)diligence - It seems to me that Paul is saying be persistant because one days efforts are not going to finish the process.

(B.)add - You build by adding, not just removing things that need removing.

(C.)faith - This is your responce and link to Jesus. He creates it & gives it to you.

(D.)virtue - This is one of the building blocks to add to your faith.

(E.)knowledge - As you have been adding virtue, then you starting knowledge - the knoweledge of god & salvation.

(F.)temperance - The knowledge of salvation includes the needs of the body.

(G.)patience - This does not sound like an instantanous process. Biblical patience needs to be learned and put to use.

(H.)godliness - The way God is and why He is like this and what He does. How to learn that & get it from Him.

(I.)brotherly kindness - Learning how to be filled with brotherly kindness inside & how to practice it outside.

(J.)charity - The Agape that makes God tick, how to get it inside & put it to use.

This is a facet of information from one quote & Bible passage. I am lead from this one quote to view conversion as the fulfilment of John 1:12&13.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is a beginning. To build a belief needs to obey Deuteronomy 29:29 and compile what God has revealed. As I said this is a start.

SOP Data - #1. {GC88 470.1}

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Edward F Sutton ]

Here are three pages from the SOP book OHC (Our High Calling) Let us all see what we can find from what they say & where they refer us to in the Bible.

"Chap. 207 - "Holier, Yea Holier Still"

For this is the will of God, even your sanctification. 1 Thess. 4:3. {OHC 213.1}

Our sanctification is God's object in all His dealing with us. He has chosen us from eternity that we might be holy. Christ gave Himself for our redemption, that through faith in His power to save from sin, we might be made complete in Him. . . . {OHC 213.2}

As Christians we have pledged ourselves to fulfil the responsibilities resting on us, and to show to the world that we have a close connection with God. Thus, through the good words and works of His disciples, Christ is to be represented and honored. {OHC 213.3}

God expects of us perfect obedience to His law. This law is the echo of His voice, saying to us, Holier, yea holier still. Desire after the fullness of the grace of Christ, yea, long--hunger and thirst--after righteousness. The promise is, "Ye shall be filled." Let your heart be filled with a longing for this righteousness. . . . {OHC 213.4}

God has plainly stated that He expects us to be perfect, and because He expects this, He has made provision for us to be partakers of the divine nature. Only thus can we gain success in striving for eternal life. The power is given by Christ. "As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1:12. {OHC 213.5}

God's people are to reflect to the world the bright rays of His glory. But in order for them to do this, they must stand where these rays can fall on them. They must cooperate with God. The heart must be cleansed of all that leads to wrong. The Word of God must be read and studied with an earnest desire to gain from it spiritual power. The bread of heaven must be eaten and assimilated, becoming part of the life. Thus we gain eternal life. Thus is answered the prayer of Christ, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17. {OHC 213.6}

"This is the will of God, even your sanctification." Is it your will that your desires and inclinations shall be brought into harmony with the divine mind? {OHC 213.7}

Chap. 208 - The Secret of Holiness

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph. 4:24. {OHC 214.1}

No man receives holiness as a birthright, or as a gift from any other human being. Holiness is the gift of God through Christ. Those who receive the Saviour become sons of God. They are His spiritual children, born again, renewed in righteousness and true holiness. Their minds are changed. With clearer vision they behold eternal realities. They are adopted into God's family, and they become conformed to His likeness, changed by His Spirit from glory to glory. From cherishing supreme love for self, they come to cherish supreme love for God and for Christ. . . . {OHC 214.2}

Accepting Christ as a personal Saviour, and following His example of self-denial--this is the secret of holiness. {OHC 214.3}

Holiness is not rapture; it is the result of surrendering all to God; it is living by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God; it is doing the will of our heavenly Father; it is trusting in God in trial, believing in His promise in the darkness as well as in the light. Religion is to walk by faith, as well as by sight, trusting in God with all confidence, and resting in His love. {OHC 214.4}

Sanctification is a state of holiness, without and within, being holy and without reserve the Lord's, not in form, but in truth. Every impurity of thought, every lustful passion, separates the soul from God; for Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner, to hide his deformity. . . . There must be a progressive work of triumph over evil, of sympathy with good, a reflection of the character of Jesus. We must walk in the light, which will increase and grow brighter unto the perfect day. This is real, substantial growth, which will finally attain to the full stature of men and women in Jesus Christ. . . . {OHC 214.5}

Conformity to the likeness of Christ's character, overcoming all sin and temptation, walking in the fear of God, setting the Lord continually before us, will bring peace and joy on earth, and ensure us pure happiness in heaven. {OHC 214.6}

Chap. 209 - A Daily Experience in Conversion

For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 2 Cor. 4:16. {OHC 215.1}

Genuine conversion is needed, not once in years, but daily. This conversion brings man into a new relation with God. Old things, his natural passions and hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong, pass away, and he is renewed and sanctified. But this work must be continual; for as long as Satan exists, he will make an effort to carry on his work. He who strives to serve God will encounter a strong undercurrent of wrong. His heart needs to be barricaded by constant watchfulness and prayer, or else the embankment will give way; and like a millstream, the undercurrent of wrong will sweep away the safeguard. No renewed heart can be kept in a condition of sweetness without the daily application of the salt of the Word. Divine grace must be received daily, or no man will stay converted. . . . {OHC 215.2}

Test and trial will come to every soul that loves God. The Lord does not work a miracle to prevent this ordeal of trial, to shield His people from the temptations of the enemy. . . . Characters are to be developed that will decide the fitness of the human family for the heavenly home--characters that will stand through the pressure of unfavorable circumstances in private and public life, and that will, under the severest temptations, through the grace of God grow brave and true, be firm as a rock to principle, and come forth from the fiery ordeal, of more value than the golden wedge of Ophir. God will endorse, with His own superscription, as His elect, those who possess such characters. . . . {OHC 215.3}

The Lord accepts no halfhearted service. He demands the whole man. Religion is to be brought into every phase of life, carried into labor of every kind. The whole being is to be under God's control. We must not think that we can take supervision of our own thoughts. They must be brought into captivity to Christ. Self cannot manage self; it is not sufficient for the work. . . . God alone can make and keep us loyal. {OHC 215.4}

Ed, thank you for that post. I agree that this is what the Bible and SOP is showing us. OUR part is to come to Jesus, and to be willing, or if we must, we can even "be willing to be made willing."
That is as little as it takes to START His work in us. But, as you said, we must come and keep coming each day. It is not a one time thing.

I just found this:

"Let us be growing Christians. We are not to stand still. We are to be in advance today of what we were yesterday; every day learning to be more trustful, more fully relying upon Jesus. Thus we are to grow up. You do not at one bound reach perfection; sanctification is the work of a lifetime. . . . {3SM 193.1}

I remember in 1843 a man and his wife . . . who expected the Lord to come in 1844, and they were waiting and watching. And every day they would pray to God; before they would bid each other goodnight, they would say, "It may be the Lord will come when we are asleep, and we want to be ready." The husband would ask his wife if he had said a word during the day that she had thought was not in accordance with the truth and the faith which they professed, and then she would ask him the same question. Then they would bow before the Lord and ask Him if they had sinned in thought or word or action, and if so that He would forgive that transgression. Now we want just such simplicity as this. {3SM 193.2}

You want to be like little children, hanging upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, and then you will be fortified. How? The angels of God will be around you as a wall of fire. The righteousness of Christ, which you claim, goes before you, and the glory of God is your rearward. God sanctify the tongues; God sanctify the thoughts; God sanctify our minds, that we may dwell upon heavenly themes, and then that we may impart that knowledge and light to others. There is great advancement for us, and do not stop here. May God help you to make the most of your responsibilities.-- Manuscript 9, 1891. {3SM 193.3}

Justification Explained--1891.--Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins. He sees Jesus upon the cross of Calvary. Why all this suffering? The law of Jehovah has been broken. The law of God's government in heaven and earth has been transgressed, and the penalty of sin is pronounced to be death. But "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Oh, what love, what matchless love! Christ, the Son of God, dying for guilty man! {3SM 193.4}

The sinner views the spirituality of the law of God and its eternal obligations. He sees the love of God in providing a substitute and surety for guilty man, and that substitute is One equal with God. This display of grace in the gift of salvation to the world fills the sinner with amazement. This love of God to man breaks every barrier down. He comes to the cross, which has been placed midway between divinity and humanity, and repents of his sins of transgression, because Christ has been drawing him to Himself. He does not expect the law to cleanse him from sin, for there is no pardoning quality in the law to save the transgressors of the law. He looks to the atoning Sacrifice as his only hope, through repentance toward God--because the laws of His government have been broken--and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ as the One who can save and cleanse the sinner from every transgression. {3SM 194.1}

The mediatorial work of Christ commenced with the commencement of human guilt and suffering and misery, as soon as man became a transgressor. The law was not abolished to save man and bring him into union with God. But Christ assumed the office of his surety and deliverer in becoming sin for man, that man might become the righteousness of God in and through Him who was one with the Father. Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. They are justified alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Father accepts the Son, and through the atoning sacrifice of His Son accepts the sinner. {3SM 194.2}

Amen! But I get the feeling that some of us are taking these quotes to mean that sanctification is the process of becoming less and less sinful over the course of a lifetime. But these precious quotes just do not teach this idea.

Jesus is a perfect example of what these quotes are talking about. Jesus demonstrated the truth about sanctification. His life from childhood to adulthood is exactly what growing in grace and sanctification is all about. And His experience did not involve gradually out growing sinful defects of character. Instead, His life and development make it clear that sanctification is the lifelong process of maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

Jesus "learned obedience" and "became perfect" as He grew and matured from childhood to adulhood. Yes, He started off perfect. But sanctification is progressive. As He grew and gained experience in the things of God He "learned obedience" and "became perfect." From this we understand that perfection is a process and is progressive - like a "light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day."

Sanctified, born again believers, converted saints, progress from "glory to glory," from "faith to fatih," from "grace to grace," - not from sin to sin until we cease from sin. It is a misconception to believe that growth in
grace and sanctification - after we have completely crucified self and have received the sinless seed of the new man - involves God gradually revealing supposed unknown moral defects of character. That's just not the example we have in Jesus.

It is a huge mistake to read all the Bible and SOP quotes that have been posted throughout this 8 page thread (and others like this one) and conclude that conversion and sanctification describes growth in grace as a lifetime process of gradually becoming less and less sinful until we cease from sin. Zyph has confidently affirmed that my summary of what you folks are saying is wrong. If you are not teaching it the way I have reflected here - then would someone please show me how and why my summary of what you all are saying is wrong.

Perhaps you feel that has already been done, and have concluded that I'm just too deluded to see what you're really saying. But all the quotes you have been posting say exactly what I've been saying. And you folks seem to believe that they are contradicting what I believe about conversion and sanctification. And yet not one single quote you have posted says that sanctification involves a lifetime of overcoming our defects of character until finally after years of falling and failing God is "able to keep us from falling."

Please, just for the sake of being kind and loving and thorough, show how even one quote from the Bible or the SOP plainly teaches we must first be born again or converted before God can empower us to lay aside our moral imperfections. So far, all the quotes that have been posted throughout this thread teach that when we obtain the gift of a new heart we must then, from that point forward, continue to cooperate with Him, on a daily moment by moment basis, in order to maintain our new heart, and to mature as Jesus matured in the fruit of the Spirit.

So please, rather than merely tossing the question back at me, please prove how - not just post a quote - but prove how that quote or quotes teach what I'm saying is wrong. And then prove how it teaches what you believe to be right. It's not enough to post a quote and assume that it means the same thing to everyone else that it means to you. Please break it down word by word and show how it means what you believe it means. And then I will do the same, more than I have already done here.

And may the truth be known.

Mike:
I would have to agree with Zyph. There has been plenty of material posted on here about conversion. Ed has just posted many quotations. You do have an interesting twist and that you create a straw argument in that we are presenting the concept that you grow less and less sinful over time.

The concept is that as long as you have these sinful bodies we are sinful natures to deal with. Jesus had a sinful body but not a sinful nature. We have a sinful body and a sinful nature. We have sinfulness by inheritance and we have chosen and cultivated sin. Jesus had the cravings of his inheritance but had never chosen sin nor ever cultivated sin. As far as the law was concerned He was sinless.

The new birth creates a new creature inside a sinful body. This creation occurs when we choose to allow Jesus into the sanctuary of our hearts. The moment we choose Jesus the seed is planted in our hearts and minds. It fulfills the principles of the sower of the seed. The spiritual nature grows inside of the sinful body. There is the same conflict in the person as in the warfare of Jacob and Esau in the womb. Sinful choices weaken the spritual nature and paralyze the soul. If enough of those decisions are made then the parable of the sower of the seed come into effect - the thorns can choke out the seed and kill it.

We have the experience of King Saul who was given a new heart, and the special support of the prophet of God in Samuel. He was blessed abundantly but he chose to allow the things of the heart to choke out the experience of God and he was eventually destroyed.

David had the same experience. He was blessed, Samuel anointed him, he had many experiences with God. Satan sought to wound him through Bathsheeba, and used him to destroy a man of God. If David had not chosen to go to the hospital and have his wounds attended to by Jesus he would have died in his experience. But David chose to accept the help that Jesus offered where Saul rebelled. The same seed, the same prophet, the same Holy Spirit, but different results.

This same process in repeated in Peter and Judas. Peter accepted the reproofs and surrendered to Jesus and Judas refused to submit himself to the cleansing that Jesus offered. Peter was rescued from himself and Judas refused and took care of things himself.

I think that you have a form of once saved always saved in your thinking and I believe that you read this thought into your Bible studies. You don't seem to like the idea of a person being able to accept Jesus and then turn away. You then attempt to solve that dilemma by making all sin get out of the person first and then salvation/the new birth occurs. That is not the parable of the seed. The seed is sown broadcast. The seed springs up in a variety of soils. The issue is is the soil prepared and open. Will the individual allow the gardener to dig deep, remove the stones, and pull the weeks. If the decision is to allow Jesus to continue the work that He has started then the soul will survive until he/she is sealed and the harvest can be accomplished.

The key issue to salvation is to allow Jesus to start and to complete the work that He has started. Our job is to keep saying yes to Him and cooperate to the best of our abilities and let Jesus do for us what we can not do for ourselves. We are not able to expel sin. We can alter behaviors but we can not cleanse the soul temple from sin. Jesus only can do that.

Again, if you can cleanse yourself from sin then you do not need a Saviour. Only Jesus can save you, and only Jesus can save me. There is not one thread of human divising in His robe of righteousness. It is a 100% free gift from Jesus. That robe is put around sinners and that robe begins to penetrate and alter the sinner. That robe has been filled with the balm of gilead. The choice of accepting the robe is the new birth, the healing of the wounds is the bringing of all things into harmony with God.

Mike, I recognize that this post could be stated in a better manner but this is the best that I can do with my present understanding. Please accept my apologies for not being clearer and more accurate. I have to leave the rest to Jesus for this is the best that I can do.

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Greg Goodchild ]

Mike, although I was going to follow a different line, you appear to be not interested at this time.

You wrote the following: " Please, just for the sake of being kind and loving and thorough, show how even one quote from the Bible or the SOP plainly teaches we must first be born again or converted before God can empower us to lay aside our moral imperfections."

Well, the following is definitive: Jeremiah 13:23 " Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil." NASB

I don't think there is any need to discuss what is written plainly. Of course we CAN do good, but only if God is in control.

I am so sorry i lost the post i had prepared for this subject, but when i pushed "reply" it disappeared and i could not put it together again......

I see many people "doing good" in order to earn salvation but we know this is head conversion, not heart conversion. The new birth experience is "Walking in the Spirit" not in the flesh. I will just "cut to the bottom line"...

2Co 5:14 "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:" also

1Co 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity."

All that we do without Christ is filthy rags....All that we do in the Spirit is for His Glory. As we are enabled to walk up the steps of Sanctification, We are covered with His robe and perfect in Christ at every step along the way. Sanctification is not just a completed product but a daily growth for those that are being sanctified by Christ. New birth is a turn around, a transformation, God taking your carnal nature and recreating it into the image of God. God speaks and it is done......but this is daily, moment by moment till you come into the "full stature of God."

We live in very wonderful times. The Coming of Christ is about to happen. This last generation has the privilege of more truth than ever before and the experience of living up to all light.....is the experience of those that vindicate the character of God. These perfect examples of Christ's character could be alive right now....for they will be the special people redeemed when He comes. Complete, mature, tested and pure Gold tried in the fire......Sanctified and fit for God's kingdom.

Does anybody really believe that I'm saying we must lay aside our sinful defects of character before we can come to Jesus or that we can do this without Jesus? God forbid. Please quote where that's what I said. Nowhere have I written anything like that.

I believe the quotes posted in this thread clearly teach that the Holy Spirit first influences us to.lay aside or to crucify our defects of character, and then we experience the miralce of conversion, rebirth. That's when God
implants the sinless seed of the new man. We are born again morally complete, but not morally mature. As newborn babes we, like the baby Jesus, must grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

Please point to the passages that refute this understanding of conversion. But please, please, do not take time and space accusing me of things that I clearly do not believe.