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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79340
09/24/06 06:52 PM
09/24/06 06:52 PM
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Quote:
It seemed to me from reading the atonement day passages from leviticus that this event would correspond more to the cross than anything else. If the Pesach lamb was killed in rememberence of Gods salvation and the atonement sacrafices for the forgiveness of sins, ehm, what am I missing?
But, Thomas, the atonement ministry isn't just killing the sacrifice and burning it on the altar: the blood of the sacrifice must be brought into God's presence and sprinkled on the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant - that sprinkling completed the atonement ministry....the scape goat bit has nothing to do with atoning for the people.
The antitypical atonement ministry has a presentation of meritorious blood (that is Jesus in person, not necessarily his own, spilt and collected blood) in God's presence in heaven. That activity completes the atonement, but only at the time it's due to happen, starting in 1844 as prophecy shows. Forgiveness has been given men since Adam, but blotting out those forgiven sins from our records in heaven in only done by doing & completing the atoning ministry of Jesus today.
Does that help with your confusion?
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79341
09/24/06 07:08 PM
09/24/06 07:08 PM
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Quote:
From Monday's study:
Quote:
Central to our theology as Seventh-day Adventists is the sanctuary, both the earthly as a model of the plan of salvation and the heavenly as the place where Jesus is now ministering in our behalf the merits of His atoning death. We as Adventists believe—based on (1) the earthly sanctuary model, (2) the book of Hebrews, and (3) the prophecies in Daniel—that since 1844 Jesus has been in the Most Holy Place, where the judgment, clearly seen in Daniel 7, is now taking place.
Seeing that this belief, or doctrine, is biblically based, as proven from our studies so far this quarter, why is it that the SDA Church is the only church that believes in and teaches this truth?
I don't think we're the only ones, since every church believes Jesus is our High Priest in heaven doing what high priests do (acc. to the Bible): the difference between our version of Jesus' job and other churches' version is what this week's lesson (lesson of this thread at least) didn't mention....
Faith that is experienced in righteous deeds (aka good works) is purified in the investigative judgement since Jesus only wants to impart his full character of thought and action to our lives, after he justified us individually with the spiritual rebirth of "the mind of Christ", ie. receptivity to his divine Spirit. IOW the IJ completes our experience of justification, or sanctification as it is also called: no other church allows such a doctrine; no other church believes Jesus can finish his job.
Is that a valid difference?
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79342
09/24/06 07:30 PM
09/24/06 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Quote.
The good news of the judgment is that Jesus, in His righteousness, gets us through the judgment because He stands there in our place.
Unquote.
What is he doing in our place?
Yes, this quote from the lesson shows what Cliff left out - but which must be included: Christ's righteousness gets us into the investigative judgement, but being fully trained by Jesus in sanctification takes us to the end of that investigation: Jesus' imputed righteousness (by which we are spiritually reborn Jn 3:3) is our experience of Christ's righteous mind by his Spirit, and Jesus' imparted righteousness fills our lives with his character till he has put all his character into us as far as he's concerned.
That's why Jesus isn't just in our place...he lifts us up to him before the universe.
Quote:
Quote.
The good news of the judgment is that we don't have to stand in our own righteousness. We can stand in the righteousness of Jesus. That we are judged by works doesn't mean that we are saved by them; we are saved, instead, only through the righteousness of Jesus, which is credited to us by faith, a faith that is always manifested by works. This righteousness covers us the moment we, through a complete surrender of ourselves to Christ, claim it for ourselves, and it stays with us (though not unconditionally) right through the judgment. After all, what good would being covered by that righteousness do any of us if we did not have it when we needed it the most, which would be in the judgment?
Unquote.
Why could we not stand in our own righteousness? What do we lack?
Are we really saved by the righteousness of Christ credited to us? Or are we saved by the grace of God in our own righteousness?
In His love
James S.
The first part of your last question is a definite!!! The second part of your last question is correct for a different purpose: fitting our experience of faith for heavenly society, so we can go from here to there with the Father's approval of our righteous deeds. Take a close look at the end of Rev 19:8...: when Jesus has finished his job in us of reproducing his righteousness his bride's "fine linen" is made, before he returns to earth to fetch without further ado the subjects of his kingdom in the new earth ("subjects" is a concept Canadians should be familiar with, along with British subjects like myself  ).
Also I'd like to agree with David's comments about Gal 2:8-10. Quite obviously, we are reborn for good works, and those good works are perfected in the investigative judgement alluded to in Tit 2:11-15. Listen to the video of the GC devotional on that text last year... 
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79343
09/24/06 07:45 PM
09/24/06 07:45 PM
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Daryl, Your comments here: Quote:
Works will not save us, however, by our works, or fruits, we shall be known. The works, or fruits, of righteousness followed those wearing the garment, however, no matter how good or bad a person has been, even good works, without wearing the robe of Christ's righteousness will not save that person.
...are only true in terms of the truth of "saved by justification of faith" - as we generally say it. In terms of sanctification - i.e. our living experience of justification by faith (itself a mental experience), being fitted for heaven is our experience of being saved from sinning. Thus justification and sanctification make up salvation, as we are being saved from sin and sinning in the present tense and in Jesus' work of the investigative judgement, which completes our salvation from (spiritual) sinfulness sinning (hence Jesus' names' meaning), making us ready for the removal of physical sinfulness when he returns to fetch us.
Yes, works do not justify us (THAT is Roman Catholicism's sacramental approach to salvation), but works complete Christ's job of saving us from sin.
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79344
09/24/06 07:58 PM
09/24/06 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
It seemed to me from reading the atonement day passages from leviticus that this event would correspond more to the cross than anything else. If the Pesach lamb was killed in rememberence of Gods salvation and the atonement sacrafices for the forgiveness of sins, ehm, what am I missing?
But, Thomas, the atonement ministry isn't just killing the sacrifice and burning it on the altar: the blood of the sacrifice must be brought into God's presence and sprinkled on the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant - that sprinkling completed the atonement ministry....the scape goat bit has nothing to do with atoning for the people.
The antitypical atonement ministry has a presentation of meritorious blood (that is Jesus in person, not necessarily his own, spilt and collected blood) in God's presence in heaven. That activity completes the atonement, but only at the time it's due to happen, starting in 1844 as prophecy shows. Forgiveness has been given men since Adam, but blotting out those forgiven sins from our records in heaven in only done by doing & completing the atoning ministry of Jesus today.
Does that help with your confusion?
Only if you can show from the bible that this did not happen at any earlier date.
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
This for instance appears to say that the blood of Jesus works in favour of the believer already within the lifetime of John the apostle. This is different from the time before Jesus as we read in Romans.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
And in the expressed context of the sanctuary, we read this.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more." 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
This seems to say that not only has Jesus secured the atonement for us, He has also presented it for the Father, sat down at the right side of the throne in heaven and His presence there opens the way for all believers to enter aswell (the sentence is written in the active present tense according to the concordance at BlueLetterBible )
In what way do these passages and possible others allow for part of the attonement to have happened first 1800 years later?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79345
09/25/06 10:02 AM
09/25/06 10:02 AM
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Your Bible study doesn't really deal with the timing of heavenly activities, just the fact that Jesus is doing the real priestly and high priestly activity there and has offered the real sacrifice for sin and atonement for us.
The lesson study on Dan 7 this quarter brings out that the judgement of the saints happens both after the Roman empire and church has done its worst until the last push of the Sunday law with that combination of America and the papacy and Protestantism, but this judgement occurs just before the saints are given the kingdom by God. Yes, Dan 7 is a study just about the judgement of the saints....
Jesus' activities as Redeemer were done once and for all time and for everyone since Adam: the OT sacrifices did deal with sin - on God's instructions, but only by faith in the promise of the Messiah to come - since only Jesus could deal with sin properly, indeed. The priestly ministry of Jesus started from after his Ascension and inauguration as High Priest in heaven, but it has two phases: forgiveness and repentance and regeneration or rebirth, after which is the judgement or day of atonement. The history lesson of the sanctuary service makes this clear: the first phase makes us Christian believers each day after confession of sins committed, with a recording of forgiveness in our past records and our present experience of rebirth by the Spirit - each day; the second phase of atonement differs from this for it actually blots out or removes the record of forgiven sins to make us cleansed and purified and filled with imparted righteousness in our lives, just as we've been filled with imputed righteousness since the beginning of our faith experience to start with. Atonement is the pinnacle of our faith experience: we become like Christ in experiencing righteousness, despite having sinful bodies.
The routine for Jesus as priest is illustrated by the sanctuary service known from the Bible. The purpose of atonement isn't really to make us Christians at all - that happened with Jesus' first phase of ministry: the atonement is to make us ready for heaven by removing sin from our lives (not from our sinful bodies - that's what translation and glorification is for) as we work with Jesus whose own character is installed in us while we walk with him.
Eph 4:13 sums up the result of Jesus' work in us by his Spirit, does it not? This topic is a much longer study than can fit into this post, and yes, the Sabbath School lesson didn't really do a very good job of it either, so read those chapters in the Great Controversy - what else have you read to try to understand this?
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79346
09/25/06 10:39 AM
09/25/06 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Your Bible study doesn't really deal with the timing of heavenly activities, just the fact that Jesus is doing the real priestly and high priestly activity there and has offered the real sacrifice for sin and atonement for us.
Except for pointing out that these things where written about in "accomplished fact" tense rather than in the "will happen in the distant future" tense. Quote:
The lesson study on Dan 7 this quarter brings out that the judgement of the saints happens both after the Roman empire and church has done its worst until the last push of the Sunday law with that combination of America and the papacy and Protestantism, but this judgement occurs just before the saints are given the kingdom by God. Yes, Dan 7 is a study just about the judgement of the saints....
But these things have not happened yet. As far as we know this sunday law has not been declared and yet it is now 162 years since the time it should have started if I understand what you are trying to say correctly. Otherwise, you still arent talking about what 1844 was really about. What about the vision in Daniel 7 indicate that it is an event surrounded on both sides by ample amounts of "buisness as usual" on earth? Quote:
Jesus' activities as Redeemer were done once and for all time and for everyone since Adam: the OT sacrifices did deal with sin - on God's instructions, but only by faith in the promise of the Messiah to come - since only Jesus could deal with sin properly, indeed. The priestly ministry of Jesus started from after his Ascension and inauguration as High Priest in heaven, but it has two phases: forgiveness and repentance and regeneration or rebirth, after which is the judgement or day of atonement. The history lesson of the sanctuary service makes this clear: the first phase makes us Christian believers each day after confession of sins committed, with a recording of forgiveness in our past records and our present experience of rebirth by the Spirit - each day; the second phase of atonement differs from this for it actually blots out or removes the record of forgiven sins to make us cleansed and purified and filled with imparted righteousness in our lives, just as we've been filled with imputed righteousness since the beginning of our faith experience to start with. Atonement is the pinnacle of our faith experience: we become like Christ in experiencing righteousness, despite having sinful bodies.
Could I ask you to elaborate this analogy between the jewish "church year" and the salvation history with special note to where Jesus birth, life, death and ressurection fits in. As I wrote earlier, it seems to me that all acts needed for our salvation were shadowed in the atonement day symbols. But then I dont see how it would fit a 1800 year gap between the when it begann and its final acts. Quote:
The routine for Jesus as priest is illustrated by the sanctuary service known from the Bible. The purpose of atonement isn't really to make us Christians at all - that happened with Jesus' first phase of ministry: the atonement is to make us ready for heaven by removing sin from our lives (not from our sinful bodies - that's what translation and glorification is for) as we work with Jesus whose own character is installed in us while we walk with him.
But if you say atonement is another way to talk about translation and glorification, you would be talking about a future time, right? For surely you arent arguing that people have been translated and glorified at death since that year?Quote:
Eph 4:13 sums up the result of Jesus' work in us by his Spirit, does it not?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:
Quote:
This topic is a much longer study than can fit into this post, and yes, the Sabbath School lesson didn't really do a very good job of it either, so read those chapters in the Great Controversy - what else have you read to try to understand this?
Ehm, the atonement passages of leviticus. Maybe I should check deuteronomy aswell? Since you refer me to the Great Controversy, does that mean that there are no scripture that you could refer me to that would explain this?
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79347
09/25/06 12:23 PM
09/25/06 12:23 PM
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Quote.
Are we really saved by the righteousness of Christ credited to us? Or are we saved by the grace of God in our own righteousness?
In His love
James S.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first part of your last question is a definite!!! The second part of your last question is correct for a different purpose: fitting our experience of faith for heavenly society, so we can go from here to there with the Father's approval of our righteous deeds. Take a close look at the end of Rev 19:8...: when Jesus has finished his job in us of reproducing his righteousness his bride's "fine linen" is made, before he returns to earth to fetch without further ado the subjects of his kingdom in the new earth ("subjects" is a concept Canadians should be familiar with, along with British subjects like myself ).
Unquote.
I believe that we are saved by the grace of God, who forgives our sins in breaking his commands, for even tough he justify us who had the righteousness of Christ in us that we obtain through a life of faith after the Spirit, we are still sinners before the law.
Therefore, I think, we stand in the judgment in our own righteousness, for it is a righteousness we obtain by living after the Spirit with faith in Christ, a righteousness of the law fulfilled in us through Christ’ mediation from heaven, through His Spirit.
When Christ had fulfilled the righteousness of the law in us who live by faith and walked after the Spirit, we might stand in the judgment perfect, we have worn His righteousness obtained through life time sanctification. Why would we again be covered by his robe of righteousness? Isn’t our righteousness enough to pass the judgment of God? Isn’t the law written in our hearts? Isn’t the law testifies that we have fulfilled it demands?
So, the question is still: Are we saved by Christ righteousness CREDITED to us, or are we saved by the grace of God in our own righteousness? I believe the last is the correct one.
In His love
James
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79348
09/25/06 07:46 PM
09/25/06 07:46 PM
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No, we cannot qualify for heaven by the righteous deeds we experience and act out by faith: such righteousness f i t s us for heavenly living - eternal living, but is not mertorious.
Only Jesus' own righteousness is meritorious and gives us title to heaven when we experience justification by faith: living righteously on earth is the project of the judgement but it is only practically possible because we have Jesus' mind recreated or imputed in our lives, and we qualify for heaven ever only always because we have Christ's righteousness.
Yes, we do develop Christlike characters of righteousness and that is a development perfected by the investigative judgement - we work with Jesus on it, but being saved from sin in the judgement is by BOTH Christ's righteousness imputed to and recreated in our minds and his imparted character instilled into our lives.
As the parable of the wedding feast illustrates, the rob of Christ's righteousness is the basis of the judgement which gives the saints the kingdom and it is the righteous attitude by which we are able to be fitted for heaven in the judgement. Our growth in grace, faith and righteous living is because we have replaced our past sins with Christ's righteousness and keep that rob on.
Our title to heaven is by grace through faith, not by grace alone by Jesus being Saviour of the world: Jesus himself merely qualifies as Saviour by developing his own righteousness and possessing it forever more - thus he saved the world by grace. Grace is that big, indeed, but we only HAVE title to heaven by a faith relationship Jesus has with us individually.
So, we are judged and saved by both Christ's righteousness imputed, recreated and credited to us, and by being fully trained in righteousness by Jesus. That clear now?
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Re: Lesson Study #13 - The Gospel and JUDGMENT
#79349
09/25/06 08:09 PM
09/25/06 08:09 PM
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The following EGW quote from another topic is also relevant to this one: Quote:
When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 312)
The above quote is the answer to James' question.
Per the above quote:
Christ's Robe of Righteousness = Perfect Obedience to the Law of Jehovah.
If I am understanding this correctly, and/or saying this correctly, this means that a person wearing Christ's Robe of Righteousness is seen by Jehovah as though he had never sinned.
Our own righteousness is as filthy rags.
Quote:
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
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