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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
#79638
09/29/06 05:42 PM
09/29/06 05:42 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Quote:
MM: No one is saying that our sinful flesh nature is eradicated when we are born again, or anytime thereafter in this lifetime. We retain it until Jesus replaces it with a sinless one when He returns in the clouds of glory. In the meantime, we must partake of the divine nature, which is what enables us to resist the unholy thoughts and feelings communicated to our new man mind by our fallen flesh nature.
Good that you tell me, I wouldnt have known by reading your previous posts...
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
#79639
09/29/06 06:01 PM
09/29/06 06:01 PM
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Quebec
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Thank you for these first eleven, Mark. May eighty-four follow if they shed further light upon our condition.
Gordon
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
#79640
09/30/06 12:30 AM
09/30/06 12:30 AM
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Hello Mike,
Thank you for your kind words in an earlier post; may the Lord continue to have mercy upon us.
Earlier you stated:
'1. Character perfection is an eternal process.'
followed by:
'4. Character perfection is a gift we receive the instant we are born again.'
Here I read 'eternal process' vs. 'instant gift'. These two seem juxtaposed.
Perhaps you are trying to say this is a gift which is to be developed over eternity? I would see this as a process of evolution rather than one of creation/re-creation, as David declares "For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. Psalm 33:9".
"For he commanded and they were created" Psalm 148:5.
"Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created" Psalm 104:30.
Justification I understand to be the new birth - "if any man be in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17.
Sanctification I understand to be the acceptance & obedience to new light given us by God, whether this pertains to past sins unknown but unconfessed, or to fresh duties, new paths as yet untrod.
And so I agree with your last point Mike:
'15. We cannot work our way to heaven, but none us will be there, however, if we refuse to allow heaven to work its way in us. '
At every step from justification we may be perfect, complete in Christ, if we are living up to all the light given us. For this reason, sanctification is the work of a lifetime, even if one's life lasts but a half hour. As with the 'thief on the cross.' He lived up to the light in his remaining time. Probably this was confessing sins he had committed. But had Providence intervened to bring him from Golgotha alive, one can know that he would have worked by faith to make restitution for his theft.
The light which God has to share is infinite, whether we die tomorow, or never. It will be our privilege, joy and eternal life to submit and follow His leading. This will be natural for the born again believer, because the nature will be changed.
If we are fighting the light given us through written inspiration or by the Spirit's still small voice, we must consider our condition. Are we truly born-again?
The Judgment vision in Testimonies For the Church, Vol. 4 pp. 384-387 gives a sobering account of our coming appointment. It is an unlikely candidate for inclusion in the quarterly, and thus will be read by few.
Gordon
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
#79641
09/30/06 02:02 AM
09/30/06 02:02 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Here's my favorite SOP quote on perfection of character:
The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.(MB 76)
Especially the bold part is very encouraging. Imagine! God will make us like Christ, make us perfect (which is how she conceives of perfection -- being like Christ) if we will simply not interpose a perverse will thus frustrating His grace.
Don't fight God, and He will bring to pass the good work He has planned for each one of us.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
#79642
09/30/06 04:01 PM
09/30/06 04:01 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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G: Earlier you stated: '1. Character perfection is an eternal process.' followed by: '4. Character perfection is a gift we receive the instant we are born again.' Here I read 'eternal process' vs. 'instant gift'. These two seem juxtaposed. Perhaps you are trying to say this is a gift which is to be developed over eternity? I would see this as a process of evolution rather than one of creation/re-creation, as David declares "For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. Psalm 33:9".
MM: I see your point. I should have expressed the first statement this way – Perfecting character is an eternal process. Jesus began perfect and He became perfect. The same is true of born again believers if they continue to abide in Jesus as He abided in the Father. This what Paul meant, I believe, when he wrote about “perfecting holiness”.
The thief on the cross was born again just as perfect and complete as the apostle Paul was the instant he was born again. The difference between the two is that Paul lived on to further develop the same righteous traits of character that Jesus implanted within both of them. Again, just like Jesus, all truly converted and born again believers begin perfect and then they go on to become perfect, that is, they mature more and more in the fruits of the Spirit, developing more and more the traits of character Jesus implanted with them. And, praise the Lord, the process continues throughout eternity.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
#79643
10/02/06 11:43 PM
10/02/06 11:43 PM
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In the following quote, some washing has to be done after being born again: Quote:
And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 15:2, 3; 14:1-5. "These are they which came out of great tribulation;" they have passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they have endured the anguish of the time of Jacob's trouble; they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments. But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault" before God. "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." They have seen the earth wasted with famine and pestilence, the sun having power to scorch men with great heat, and they themselves have endured suffering, hunger, and thirst. But "they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelation 7:14-17. {GC 648.3}
A few more observations about this quote:
One is that it applies to the 144,000. So whether the number is literal or not, we know that in Ellen White’s view, at least 144,000 achieve this kind of perfection.
Another is that they live without an intercessor for some period of time. Only those who have been fully clothed in the wedding garment could survive. So perfection is a must for that group.
Another is that in the paragraph that follows, not posted here, she indicates that this group come from all of the redeemed down through time. The 144,000, in other words are not the final generation. That seems to conflict with her statement that the 144,000 pass through the final plagues, but I’ve long thought that there is likely a special resurrection for those of the 144,000 who lived before us and have been perfected, like the resurrection of the saints at Christ’s resurrection.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
#79644
10/02/06 11:49 PM
10/02/06 11:49 PM
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Another thing about the quote is that it seems to suggest that perfection even of the 144,000 is not complete until they pass this final test.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
#79645
10/03/06 12:18 AM
10/03/06 12:18 AM
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On the other hand look at this quote Mike: This is close to what you've been saying here for years! If you look at it carefully though, it is still talking about a process. Quote:
The Scriptures teach us to seek for the sanctification to God of body, soul, and spirit. In this work we are to be laborers together with God. Much may be done to restore the moral image of God in man, to improve the physical, mental, and moral capabilities. Great changes can be made in the physical system by obeying the laws of God and bringing into the body nothing that defiles. And while we cannot claim perfection of the flesh, we may have Christian perfection of the soul. Through the sacrifice made in our behalf, sins may be perfectly forgiven. Our dependence is not in what man can do; it is in what God can do for man through Christ. When we surrender ourselves wholly to God, and fully believe, the blood of Christ cleanses from all sin. The conscience can be freed from condemnation. Through faith in His blood, all may be made perfect in Christ Jesus. Thank God that we are not dealing with impossibilities. We may claim sanctification. We may enjoy the favor of God. We are not to be anxious about what
Christ and God think of us, but about what God thinks of Christ, our Substitute. Ye are accepted in the Beloved. The Lord shows, to the repenting, believing one, that Christ accepts the surrender of the soul, to be molded and fashioned after His own likeness. {2SM 32.3}
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
#79646
10/03/06 01:16 AM
10/03/06 01:16 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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By beholding we become changed. It is as we see the truth about God's character that we become transformed into the same image.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
#79647
10/04/06 12:12 AM
10/04/06 12:12 AM
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'Beholding' is a deceptively passive word. It's good to bear in mind that the text is not only talking about looking at Christ in our devotional times, but also keeping our eyes fixed on Christ in every situation - the middle of strife within and without.
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