MM: Here it is line by line. Do you agree with the points I’ve posted in response to each line?

1. “So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind.”

MM: She says it cannot be explained. It can, however, be experienced. Do you have any problem with her saying it “cannot be explained”? Yes or no, please.

Why does this need comment?

2. “A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted.”

MM: There is a process which ends in conversion. The process ends. It does not go on indefinitely.

No, I don't agree that the process ends.

3. “By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ.”

MM: During the process of conversion Jesus draws the person to Himself. During the process of conversion, the person is not saved or converted.

I couldn't say at what exact moment a person is converted.

4. “These [impressions] may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher.”

MM: During the process of conversion, before the person is saved or converted, he may do many things that Christians typically do, but they do not mean he is saved or converted.

They may be saved or converted before you think they are. Perhaps the giving of oneself to Christ begins when one starts saying "yes" to the Holy Spirit.

5. “Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus.”

MM: The person is saved and converted the instant they surrender themselves to Jesus. This “surrender” is full and complete. Nothing is unrevealed or uncrucified. All sinful cultivated habits were revealed and confessed. Here is how Sister White describes it elsewhere:

I disagree with your characterization here. She seems to me to be saying the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. What I hear her saying is that in some cases there is a dramatic event, where one gives one's self to Christ. She is specifically denying that all conversions are like this. She says *even* in these cases, where there is a dramatic event of one giving oneself to Christ, there was preparatory work of the Spirit to prepare the sinner to surrender.

However, many make the surrender without even knowing how or when it occurred.

Also notice that the surrender is described as giving oneself to Christ, not as having reached the end of a list of sins to confess.

You seem to think if the person died before the "instant" they gave themselves to Christ, they would be lost. This is not at all clear to me. If they were already responding to the Holy Spirit, already saying "yes" to God, then perhaps they would be happy if God were to take them to heaven. This is the bottom line; will a person be happy in heaven in God's presence, happy to live by the principles of God's kingdom?

Many will be converted without even having heard the name of Christ.

Well, this all seems beside the point, which is that there is no need for an exhaustive list of sins to be confessed before one can be converted. This isn't how conversion works. She doesn't describe anything like this. She describes the soul being prepared to accept Christ, to give oneself to Him.


Quote:
God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}

Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained. {NL 28.1}

God will accept nothing less than unreserved surrender. Half-hearted, sinful Christians can never enter heaven. {LDE 191.5}

All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. (COL 330)

When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. (DA 676)

When a soul is truly converted, old habits and natural evil besetments are done away in Christ Jesus and all things become new. (TMK 247)

There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. (1 S&T 246)

Transformation of heart means an entire change of the entire man. (TDG 48)

MM: She clearly says, “There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ.” No defective trait of character is unrevealed or uncrucified when a person completes the process of conversion.

I don't see how you can get from what she wrote to what you are saying. She's saying there must be an entire surrender. Every sin which is revealed must be surrendered. She doesn't say that God reveals every sinful habit cultivated since birth. That's something you came up with.

6.” By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.”

MM: The long, patient, protracted ends in conversion. Conversion is the end product of the process of conversion. It does not go on indefinitely.

What is the "this" she is talking about? It is talking about the specific cases where there is a dramatic event where one responds to the Holy Spirit, and gives oneself to Christ. The patient, protracted process is the preparation of the heart to yield to the appeal to give oneself to Christ. It has nothing to do with confessing an exhaustive long list of sins.

TE: Paul doesn't say anything in Rom. 2:13-15 about God's saving people in a different way than He normally does, which was what I was asking for a reference for.

MM: I believe it reflects a difference. People who have never heard of the name of Jesus and yet will be saved in heaven is very much different than people who consciously received Jesus into their hearts as their personal Saviour.

Paul doesn't say anything like this. He says they have a law written in their hearts. He said previously that everyone can know the graciousness of God, and should be thankful to Him, because He has revealed Himself to them. Everyone is saved by responding to the light which God reveals to them. It's the same principle for all.

TE: You say He is obligated to save sinners according to rules He has established, but that He makes exceptions to these rules. Since He's God, He can do whatever He wants, which He obviously does, since He makes exceptions to the rules He made up. That sounds pretty arbitrary, just like Satan alleges.

MM: The exceptions God makes to “the” rule to save people do not violate “the” rule.

"Exception" means to do something differently than the rule specifies. Otherwise it wouldn't be an exception. So it does violate the rule.

…………………….

TE: And everyone who would come from Adam [would have died if Jesus had not paid the sin debt]. "Adam" in fact means "the human race" (that is, that's how "Adam" is most often translated, as it usually applies to the race, rather than to just the one man.)

MM: How long do you think God would have delayed punishing and destroying Adam and Eve if He hadn’t given Jesus permission to pay our sin debt? Why would He allow them to live a second longer in a hopeless state, let alone bear children? To what purpose?

TE: I don't see any connection whatsoever between what you are writing and what I'm responding to. What are you talking about? How does this have any relation about what we were talking about?

MM: It’s simple. If Jesus had not volunteered to pay our sin debt the human race would have ended with the punishment and death of Adam and Eve. You included “everyone who would come from Adam”, which is impossible. There would have been no offspring.

"Adam" means "man" or "human race." God foresaw those who arise from Adam's loins. We were all included in him. When God prevented Adam from perishing, He made our existence possible. It's like Paul talks about in Hebrews, when he says that Levi paid tithes in Abraham.

TE: To answer your question, sin brings its own punishment, which is death. If God had not taken action to allow Adam and Eve to exist, they would have perished right away, and we would have perished along with them.

MM: Again, there would have been no “we”. How can “we” perish with them since “we” did not exist?

The same way Levi could pay tithes in Abraham, when he didn't exist.

Tom, we are never going to see eye to eye on whether or not God deliberately waits until after we are converted and born again to reveal certain sinful cultivated habits. You are arguing vigorously against my conclusion, but you have not yet proven your conclusion.

So, let's switch gears. Please post inspired quotes (Bible or SOP) which clearly teach us that God does not reveal to us all of our sinful cultivated habits before we experience the miracle of rebirth, that He waits for a more convenient time to reveal some of them to us. Thank you.

There's no need to do this. The principles of conversion are well described. They don't mention anything about the revelation of every sinful habit cultivated since birth. I could ask you to produce some inspired statement saying you don't need to hop on one leg to be saved, but this is not a helpful request.

Here's an SOP statement which lays out the principles of conversion:



Conversion comes as we respond to the love of God revealed by Jesus Christ (not by an confessing sin from an exhaustive list).