I was reading A New Life (a SOP compilation) and came across this powerful paragraph:

NL 25
Christ made an end of sin, bearing its heavy curse in His own body on the tree, and He hath taken away the curse from all those who believe in Him as a personal Saviour. He makes an end of the controlling power of sin in the heart, and the life and character of the believer testify to the genuine character of the grace of Christ. (NL 25)

When does Jesus do this for us? Before or after we are born again? Does He gradually make an end of the controlling power of sin in our heart? Or, does He do it immediately, the instant we complete the "process" of conversion, the second we are truly converted and born again?

DA 172
A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. ... Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,-- a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

Being born again means being converted, which points to a transformation. The converted person becomes a new creature, choosing to live for Christ instead of self. However, this doesn't mean that there aren't things to learn, or areas of one character of which one is unaware, that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal. Of course, it wouldn't be possible to reveal all of our sin at once, or even more than a minascule part of it; there's simply to much. So the Holy Spirit reveals certain representative sins, and, as we are willing to cooperate with Him, reveals more and more as we grow in grace.

Tom, your explanation of post-conversion growth and sanctification assumes the Holy Spirit leaves us in ignorance and in sin. This implies that the Holy spirit is the author of unrevealed, unconquered sinful thoughts, feelings, motives, and behaviours.

MM: What? Your comment makes no sense to me. You must have misunderstood what I said. Please explain your thinking, or ask me for clarification on what I wrote, because there is a huge disconnect between what I was thinking when I wrote what I did and what you have written.

The Holy Spirit is in no way slack in His work, but shows us things a little at a time because of our shortcomings, not His!

Happy Sabbath.

Okay, let’s take what you wrote and look at each point:

TE: Being born again means being converted, which points to a transformation. The converted person becomes a new creature, choosing to live for Christ instead of self.

MM: I agree.

TE: However, this doesn't mean that there aren't things to learn, or areas of one character of which one is unaware, that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal.

MM: I disagree. The Holy Spirit does not purposely withhold the truth from us because He thinks we are incapable of handling it. Character is the result of doing the same thing over and over and over again until it becomes an ingrained habit. No one can be unaware of such a thing, especially not someone who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

TE: Of course, it wouldn't be possible to reveal all of our sin at once, or even more than a minascule part of it; there's simply to much.

MM: I disagree. You are implying that we are born again with the majority of our sinful defective traits of character of intact. It is during the “patient, protracted process” of converting that the Holy Spirit gently reveals our defective traits of character. He doesn’t leave one single sinful habit unrevealed to be discovered later on after we are born again.

TE: So the Holy Spirit reveals certain representative sins, and, as we are willing to cooperate with Him, reveals more and more as we grow in grace.

MM: I disagree. The Holy Spirit does not intentionally keep us in the dark regarding certain unrevealed sinful habits of character. He doesn’t standby and allow us to go on sinning ignorantly until He decides we are ready to see the truth about our unknown sinful traits of character. Again, character is the result of cherished and repetitious thoughts and feelings or words or behaviour. No one is ignorant of how they think and feel and behave on a normal and regular basis.

According to the following inspired insight it does not require years of keeping us in the dark, years of allowing us to cherish and repeat certain sinful thoughts and words and actions, until the Holy Spirit thinks we are ready to know the truth about them, until He thinks we are ready to live without them.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

In the following passage when does the miracle of conversion and rebirth happen? Is it before or after the sin-sick soul falls, all helpless and broken, upon the Rock, Jesus Christ?

LHU 273
The heart must first accept the truth as it is in Jesus. This is the foundation of true religion. Conviction of sin then begins to be felt; the sin-sick soul, feeling his need of a physician, comes to Jesus of Nazareth for pardon. Taking up the warfare against the enemy, he looks to Jesus for strength to resist temptation. He watches unto prayer, and searches the Scriptures. The truths of the Bible are seen in a new and intensely interesting light, and the Spirit of God opens to him their solemn importance. He studies the life of Christ, and the more clearly he discerns the spotless purity of the Saviour's character, the less confidence he has in his own goodness; the more steadily and closely he views Jesus, the less he discovers of perfection in himself. His self-righteousness disappears, and he falls, all helpless and broken, upon the Rock, Christ Jesus. He will be sorely pressed by the tempter, and at times may have feelings of discouragement, and be tempted to think that God will not accept him; but, taking God at His word, and pleading His sure promises, he presses through the darkness into the clear sunlight of Christ's love. {LHU 273.2}

It should be obvious that the sin-sick soul in this passage did not complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion until the instant he fell upon the Rock and was broken. But what about all the religious things he did before he was broken and converted? Can someone who is not born again do such thing? Or, is this what happens to sinners during the “patient, protracted process” leading up to their conversion?

Please notice how she uses the expression “fall upon the Rock” in the context of rebirth and conversion in the following quotes. Again, it should be obvious that the sinner in the LHU 273 text quoted above was not converted, in spite of all the religious things he was doing, until the moment he fell upon the Rock and was broken. Does anyone else agree?

DA 599
To those who believe, Christ is the sure foundation. These are they who fall upon the Rock and are broken. Submission to Christ and faith in Him are here represented. To fall upon the Rock and be broken is to give up our self-righteousness and to go to Christ with the humility of a child, repenting of our transgressions, and believing in His forgiving love. And so also it is by faith and obedience that we build on Christ as our foundation. {DA 599.3}

OHC 37
Do not merely assent to the truth, and fail to be a doer of the words of Christ. The truth must be applied to self; it must bring men and women who receive it to the Rock, that they may fall upon the Rock and be broken. Then Jesus can mold and fashion their characters after His own divine character. {OHC 37.5}

5T 518
And what has caused this alarming condition? Many have accepted the theory of the truth who have had no true conversion. I know whereof I speak. There are few who feel true sorrow for sin, who have deep, pungent convictions of the depravity of the unregenerate nature. The heart of stone is not exchanged for a heart of flesh. Few are willing to fall upon the Rock and be broken. {5T 218.2}

TM80
Those who are now first, who have been untrue to the cause of God, will soon be last, unless they repent. Unless they speedily fall upon the Rock and be broken, and be born again, the spirit that has been cherished will continue to be cherished. Mercy's sweet voice will not be recognized by them. Bible religion, in private and in public, is with them a thing of the past. {TM 80.1}

Food for thought:

Truth is universal and absolute.

But

Salvation is personal.


Perfection of Character is a judgment.

If we judge perfection of Character by measuring up to absolute truth, we will be friends of Satan.

If we judge character in truth and grace we will be children of God.


If we make a universal formula of Salvation, we make Truth relative.

MM: I disagree. You are implying that we are born again with the majority of our sinful defective traits of character of intact.

No I'm not. At least, not the way you define things. You define sinful defective traits of character as being willful sins, not sins of ignorance. So I agree that when one is born again that one does not, using your definition of sinful defective traits of character, have such. Where we differ is that you seem to perceive perfection of character as being something which happens instantaneously rather than being a process, which is how I see both the Spirit of Prophecy and Scripture presenting the topic.

For example, DA speaks of how God would have us renounce the selfishness which led us to choose Him. This is dealing with motivations we aren't aware of.

Another example would be DA speaks of how the disciples of Christ are not led to follow him by hope of reward or fear of punishment. But this is something which one grows into as there are many who are converted, born again, who are motivated by hope of reward and fear of punishment.

Another example would be COL "the Two Worshippers" which points out that at every advance step in our Christian walk, our repentance will deepen.

A. T. Jones, who was the one presenting "the message of God to the church of Laodecia" (from EGW) applied the Laodecian message to himself, and those to whom he was addressing; he was speaking to converted people.

So there are many indications (these are just a few) that our walk towards perfection of character is a progressive one. This doesn't mean that one must remain sinning while this growth occurs, however. John had the right perspective:



The idea is that we "sin not." But *if* (not "when" but "if") any man sin, we have an advocate.

TE: Where we differ is that you seem to perceive perfection of character as being something which happens instantaneously rather than being a process …

MM: I believe it is both. In the same way Jesus was born perfect and became perfect so too we are born again perfect and we become perfect. Paul spoke of “perfecting holiness”. That’s what I’m talking about.

Sanctification is a process that begins the moment we are born again. This process involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, and will continue throughout eternity. It’s an advance from one stage of perfection to another, from “glory to glory”, from “faith to faith”, from “grace to grace”.

If, as you believe, sins of ignorance constitutes cultivated defective traits character then we are in trouble. Why? Because if we should die before the Holy Spirit reveals them to us we will go into the grave with them. The reason this is trouble is due to the fact that Jesus will not change our character when He returns. No one will go to heaven if they are resurrected with defective characters.

I do not believe sins of ignorance constitute character. They have to do with intellectual things such as which day is the Sabbath, what to eat and not to eat, when did Jesus enter the most holy place, etc. Such things do not constitute character. Character is the result of repetitious choices to think, speak, and behave in specific ways, and is related to what we know to be true and right.

TE: Where we differ is that you seem to perceive perfection of character as being something which happens instantaneously rather than being a process …

MM: I believe it is both. In the same way Jesus was born perfect and became perfect so too we are born again perfect and we become perfect.

It's not the same. Jesus never sinned. He had no sinfulness to overcome.

Paul spoke of “perfecting holiness”. That’s what I’m talking about.

This is perfection of character, a process.

Sanctification is a process that begins the moment we are born again. This process involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, and will continue throughout eternity. It’s an advance from one stage of perfection to another, from “glory to glory”, from “faith to faith”, from “grace to grace”.

If, as you believe, sins of ignorance constitutes cultivated defective traits character then we are in trouble.

I don't know why you so often misquote me, MM. It's mind-boggling. I've never said this.

Why? Because if we should die before the Holy Spirit reveals them to us we will go into the grave with them. The reason this is trouble is due to the fact that Jesus will not change our character when He returns. No one will go to heaven if they are resurrected with defective characters.

I do not believe sins of ignorance constitute character. They have to do with intellectual things such as which day is the Sabbath, what to eat and not to eat, when did Jesus enter the most holy place, etc. Such things do not constitute character. Character is the result of repetitious choices to think, speak, and behave in specific ways, and is related to what we know to be true and right.

What we know to be true and right develops as we learn more of the character of Christ. For example, one can become more attuned to what would be offensive to another person in terms of one's actions or words. Or some rationalization of a selfish desire can be brought to light, so one becomes aware of some selfishness one was not aware of previously. EGW alludes to that when she writes that God would have us renounce the selifshenss that first led us to Christ. When we were first born again, we were unaware of it. But when the Holy Spirit later reveals it to us, we should respond as God desires.

Here is some from Waggoner which discusses related ideas to what we have been discussing:




This is from the 1891 GCB. Note his explanation of "representative sin".