"As a man thinking in his heart, so is he." Given that this constitutes what a man is, it's difficult for me to see that Jesus missed something here. The will is connected to our thinking. We reach decisions based on what we think. If the will is disconnected from right thinking, as you seem to be implying, then what is it that determines what we do MM?

Regarding traits, I understand the implanting which takes place when one is born again as having to do with our thinking changing. For example, we have the following description from COL:



I see this as speaking of the same thing as the implanted traits. Do you agree with this, MM? Or do you think this paragraph here is dealing with something other than the statement about implanted traits when one is born again?

For example, let's take a look at one of the quotes you mentioned:



I understand this to be saying that as we behold Christ and learn of Him, we will be transformed into the same image. I understand that the traits she mentioned -- compassion, tenderness, and love -- all have to do with right thinking. Indeed, I don't see how these traits can be understood as not having to do with thought.

Regarding our renouncing our selfishness, here's the quote again:



She is not speaking of the nobleman here, but of "us," which includes herself and her readers. She took a principle from the nobleman's experience and applied it to her readers and herself. She is not implying that either she herself or her readers are not converted. She is saying that God would have us renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him, "us" meaning "you and I" where the "I" would be the one writing, Ellen White and the "you" would be the reader of what she wrote. The Nobleman, being dead, is not included in the "us."

TE: If the will is disconnected from right thinking, as you seem to be implying, then what is it that determines what we do MM? … I understand that the traits she mentioned -- compassion, tenderness, and love -- all have to do with right thinking. Indeed, I don't see how these traits can be understood as not having to do with thought.

MM: Thoughts and feelings combined constitute character. “If the thoughts are wrong the feelings will be wrong, and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character.” (5T 310) Right thinking is only part of the equation. Again, the will, not right thinking, is the power that governs all other faculties, including right thinking. Character is the compilation of cultivated traits. Undeveloped traits do not count as character.

5T 513
Pure religion has to do with the will. The will is the governing power in the nature of man, bringing all the other faculties under its sway. The will is not the taste or the incli-nation, but it is the deciding power which works in the children of men unto obedience to God or unto disobedience. {5T 513.1}

TE: She is saying that God would have us renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him, "us" meaning "you and I" where the "I" would be the one writing, Ellen White and the "you" would be the reader of what she wrote. The Nobleman, being dead, is not included in the "us."

MM: Such selfishness is expelled from the heart when we are born again. It does not exist in the hearts of those who are truly born again. True, selfishness is a natural trait we all possess, but in the cases of born again believers it resides in sinful flesh nature, not in their hearts. In Christ they keep it under the control of a sanctified will and mind. In Christ they do not allow it to resurface.

LHU 292
All selfishness comes from Satan. {LHU 292.2}

OHC 287
The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart. {OHC 287.4}

SD 334
Bible conversion will lead to constant and abiding activity, which will be free from all selfishness, all self-exaltation, and all boastful claims of holiness. If you are truly converted to God, you will exert a strong and telling influence on the side of truth. {SD 334.3}

MM 46
Selfishness must be expelled from the soul. The heart must be purified from all envy, all evil surmising. Believers must constantly receive and impart the love of God. {MM 46.1}

FLB 140
It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. {FLB 140.4}

MM, please tell me how you can divorce the will from thinking. How exactly is it that you think the will is exercised, if not by thought?



Here's what she wrote:



This is obviously referring to born again persons, as it says he delays the answer to "our" request that He may show "us" our need of his grace; desiring "us" to renounce the selfishness that leads "us" to "seek Him." This is dealing with people (i.e. "us" , her readers and herself) who are seeking Him. People not born again would not be:

a.Seeking Christ
b.Reading the Desire of Ages
c.Include Ellen White

It is certainly possible that the groups in a. and b could include individuals who are not born again, but one would certainly not expect that to be the case. That is, it is obvious that Ellen White's intention in using "us" is to include persons who are born again, which appears not to be agreeing with your conception of things.

The selfishness of which Ellen White refers to is not active selfishness. As you point out, this is dealt with when one is born again. It is dealing of that which is in us of which we are unaware. God wants us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to follow Him. Surely we cannot do this as long as we are unaware of it. So the first step is for us to become aware of this selfishness. Recognizing that there exists the possibility that this selfishness could exist in us is a first step. If we take the position, contrary to what EGW has written, that it is impossible for there to be any selfishness in us to be revealed, I think we're making a bad mistake, and perhaps a dangerous one.

Tom, which one of the 5 quotes that I posted above teach us that we are born again with unknown selfishness that must be overcome a little at a time after we are born again?

MM, that's a strange question. You were showing quotes to present a point of view you hold. I presented a quote to show a shortcoming in your view. Surely you are clever enough to come up with quotes which do not say something contrary to what you are thinking. So why should I expect one of the quotes you presented to show something contrary to what you think?

The issue isn't if there is something in EGW's writings which does not deal with a certain issue (in this case, renouncing selfishness), but if there *are* things in her writings which deal with this subject. There are; specifically the quote I presented:



Christ desires us to "renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him." "Our" refers to:

a.Ellen White
b.Her readers

(it doesn't include the nobleman; he dead.)

Tom, I find it difficult to believe that Sister White, while writing the DA, was guilty of seeking Jesus for selfish, sinful reasons. And, I find it hard to believe that the following inspired insight excludes born again believers seeking Jesus for selfish reasons:

"The true Christian banishes all selfishness from his heart."

On the DA quote, regardless of whether you find it hard to believe or not, that's what she wrote.

The selfishness referred to in the other quote is known selfishness. The DA quote is dealing with selfishness of which we are unaware. The Savior delays the answer to our requests in order to make this known; that was her point. We can hardly renounce something of which we are unaware. Of course the non-born again person is not seeking Christ at all, so the quote doesn't refer to the unconverted. And again, she speaks of "us," which, of course, includes her, the "I" in "us."

Thank you for making your point clear. Again, you believe Sister White, while writing the DA, was guilty of having unknown "evil" and "selfishness" in her heart. Did she also die in this evil, selfish state?

Ellen White wrote, "The Saviour longs to give us a greater blessing than we ask; and He delays the answer to our request that He may show us the evil of our own hearts, and our deep need of His grace. He desires us to renounce the selfishness that leads us to seek Him."

I don't see a problem with this. We are not "guilty," as you put it, for things we don't know about (unless we are willingly ignorant). Ellen White wrote that from an early age (maybe 13), as soon as she was aware of God's will, she was willing to do it. God doesn't ask any more than this. Ellen White wasn't "guilty" of anything.

Unknown evil in our hearts that causes God to delay answering our prayers because we seek Him for selfish reasons.

1. Can you name some examples of unknown evil and selfishness that still remained in the heart of Sister White after serving Jesus for over 50 years? Which is how long she had been serving Jesus by the time she wrote the DA.

2. Also, why didn't the Holy Spirit reveal them to her? Why did He allow her to retain evil and selfishness in her heart for so many years?

3. Did He reveal them to her before she died? Or, did He let her retain them until she died?