TE: It's not the same. Jesus never sinned. He had no sinfulness to overcome.

MM: It is the same. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. He overcame sin in the same way born again believers overcome sin – by resisting the unholy clamorings generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature.

TE: This is perfection of character, a process.

MM: Beginning perfect and becoming perfect is another way of saying perfecting holiness. You cannot perfect holiness if you’re not already holy, right?

TE: However, this doesn't mean that there aren't things to learn, or areas of one character of which one is unaware, that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal.

MM: If, as you believe, sins of ignorance constitutes cultivated defective traits character then we are in trouble.

TE: I don't know why you so often misquote me, MM. It's mind-boggling. I've never said this.

MM: Oh! Then what did you mean by “areas of one character of which one is unaware, that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal”? What kind of character are you referring to? Character, by the way, is the result of repetitious choices.

SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

5T 310
If the thoughts are wrong the feelings will be wrong, and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {5T 310.1}

In the following quote Sister White makes it clear that when we complete the “patient, protracted process” of conversion a “complete change” happens. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are “implanted”. We are “fitted with traits of character”. There is no hint that the “complete” and “thorough” change she describes is the result of gradually becoming less and less defective as the Holy Spirit slowly reveals hitherto unknown character imperfections.

ST 10-13-1898
"The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." By this parable Christ seeks to illustrate the work of the Holy Spirit upon the human heart. The process is invisible by which the leaven changes the meal into which it has been introduced; but it continues to work until the meal is converted into bread. So the leaven of truth, working inwardly, produces a complete change in the human heart. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity. New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The heart is cleansed from all impurity, and man is fitted with traits of character that will enable him to do service for God.

This is just talking about what Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about; being born again. Of course when one is converted there is a decided change. No one is arguing this.

Perfection of character is a process which takes time, not conversion. These are two different things.

Tom, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that the process of perfecting character includes the Holy Spirit keeping us in the dark regarding certain character defects until He feels we are ready to overcome them.

Whereas I believe it exclusively involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, nurturing and developing the righteous traits of character God implanted in us the moment we were born again. It has nothing to do with discovering unknown defective traits of character.

No one can begin partaking of the divine nature before they are born again. No one can begin the process of perfecting implanted character traits until after they are born again. The process of perfecting character begins the moment we are converted, and continues throughout eternity.

"This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another." (ML 250) In other words, sanctification is the process of "perfecting holiness" - not unperfecting character imperfections.

Jesus Himself developed a perfect character. Obviously, therefore, developing a perfect character does not include the Holy Spirit gradually revealing unknown habits of sin, that is, cultivated traits of character. Instead, developing a perfect character means cultivating undeveloped traits of character. Jesus was born with undeveloped traits of character. No one is born again with mature, cultivated, fully developed traits of character. We do not begin cultivating sinless character traits until after we are born again.

3SM 133
In His life on earth, Christ developed a perfect character, He rendered perfect obedience to His Father's commandments. {3SM 133.3}

MYP 78
The early life of Christ was subjected to severe trials, hardships, and conflicts, that He might develop the perfect character which makes Him a perfect example for children, youth, and manhood. {MYP 78.2}

When we are born again Jesus implants within us all of His sinless, perfect traits of character. True, they are undeveloped. Nevertheless, the moment we are reborn we have His sinless, perfect character. We do not gradually accumulate His sinless traits of character one at a time. We are born gain with all of them. Not one trait is missing. Like Jesus, born again believers begin with perfect traits of character, traits which they must start nurturing and developing now and will continue to do so throughout eternity.

DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

COL 311
Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. {COL 311.4}

ML 272
This robe, Christ's own spotless character, is freely offered to every human being. But all who receive it will receive and wear it here. {ML 272.6}

9T 21
Christ came to stand at the head of humanity, to work out in our behalf a perfect character. Those who receive Him are born again. {9T 21.3}

HP 18
Every promise is sure. Jesus is our Surety and Mediator, and has placed at our command every resource, that we may have a perfect character. {HP 18.5}

TDG 204
Christ did not leave this world until He had made it possible for every soul to live a life of perfect faith and obedience, to have a perfect character. {TDG 204.3}

When Jesus returns He will not change our character. Since our character determines our eternal destiny no one, not even those who are resurrected, can possess unknown and unconquered sinful traits of character. If they did, they would be unfit for heaven. Only those who have a perfect character can go to heaven with Jesus. It does not say all must have a perfectly developed character to go to heaven. Remember, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our potential to continue perfecting our sinless traits of character.

CSW 112
In the word of God they are to learn that all who enter heaven must have a perfect character; for then they will meet their Lord in peace. {CSW 112.3}

UL 184
Christ came to the earth to give to men the pattern of the perfect character that all must obtain who would be welcomed to the future heavenly world. {UL 184.5}

MAR 326
The change from earth to heaven will not change men's character; the happiness of the redeemed in heaven results from the character formed in this life after the image of Christ. The saints in heaven will first have been saints on earth. {Mar 326.4}

4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. {4T 429.2}

These inspire insights teach us that we are born again with perfect characters. The difference between people like Paul and people like the thief on the cross is how much time they had to nurture and develop and cultivate the sinless traits of character Jesus implanted within them the instant they were born again. Fortunately, by the grace of God, we are not saved based on our fitness for heaven; instead, we are saved based on our title to heaven.

FLB 116
The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven. {FLB 116.2}

DA 762
The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. {DA 762.2}

By implanted character traits, do you mean something different than a change in our thinking? That's what conversion is, isn't it? A change in thinking? (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he).

Also, what's a defective trait of character? EGW speaks of character in terms of the trend of one's life. Is this what you have in mind? Or something else?

In terms of what happens during sanctification, I think of the following statement from Ellen White:



Note she uses the word "us," thus including herself in God's work in our hearts. So this is counsel is dealing with those who are converted. Does this fit with what you have been sharing?

TE: By implanted character traits, do you mean something different than a change in our thinking? That's what conversion is, isn't it? A change in thinking? (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he).

MM: Many things happen to us the moment we are converted and born again. New thinking is only part of what happens to us.

COL 98-100
The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}

Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God's word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character. {COL 99.1}

SC 60
If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? {SC 60.2}

TE: Also, what's a defective trait of character? EGW speaks of character in terms of the trend of one's life. Is this what you have in mind? Or something else?

MM: We inherit defective traits of character from our parents. We do not, however, inherit their character. We inherit their traits. Character is the result of repetitiously choosing sinful thoughts, words, or actions. As we cherish certain sins over and over again we develop corresponding traits. The sum total of such nurtured traits is called character. When we are born again God implants new traits of character within us. Then we spend the rest of eternity developing them unto perfection.

TE: Note she uses the word "us," thus including herself in God's work in our hearts. So this is counsel is dealing with those who are converted. Does this fit with what you have been sharing?

MM: According to the context of your quote, the nobleman and his family were converted sometime after the son was healed. He was selfish and unconverted when he first sought Jesus for healing. This is not how truly born again believers behave toward Jesus.

DA 200
The father hurries on to greet his son. He clasps him to his heart as one restored from the dead, and thanks God again and again for this wonderful restoration. {DA 200.1}

The nobleman longed to know more of Christ. As he afterward heard His teaching, he and all his household became disciples. Their affliction was sanctified to the conversion of the entire family. … {DA 200.2}

He who blessed the nobleman at Capernaum is just as desirous of blessing us. But like the afflicted father, we are often led to seek Jesus by the desire for some earthly good; and upon the granting of our request we rest our confidence in His love. … {DA 200.3}

The nobleman wanted to see the fulfillment of his prayer before he should believe; but he had to accept the word of Jesus that his request was heard and the blessing granted. … {DA 200.4}

1.As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. So as we think, we are. So whatever would be missing would have to be something which isn't a part of us, which is impossible.

Another way of seeing that right thinking (including the right action of the will) encompasses everything is that from our thoughts arise our desires, our choices, our actions; everything. So if God can get us to think right, the battle is won.

2.How do you define "trait"? You seem to be mixing two different things in your use of "trait". On the one hand you use it to refer to things inherited, and on the other you use it to refer to being converted. But being converted doesn't change our heredity. It changes our mind (that is, our thinking) not our genes.

3.The context of "us" does not include the nobleman, of course. How could "us" include the nobleman, who had been dead a couple of thousand years, at the point when Ellen White wrote her counsel to us?

"Us" refers, obviously, to the author and her readers, who would presumably be converted (the author was converted, right?)

TE: … from our thoughts arise our desires, our choices, our actions; everything. So whatever would be missing would have to be something which isn't a part of us, which is impossible.

MM: Yes, right thinking is important. But I do not agree that it is the source of everything else. Desires, choices, and actions are distinct and separate. The will, not the faculties of the mind or the body, is the governing power in man. Our lower powers are the source of our appetites and passions. They generate and communicate innocent and legitimate needs. It is our fallen flesh nature that intercepts them, perverts them, and transmits them as unholy thoughts and feelings, which are initially nothing more than temptations. Through the exercise of sanctified willpower we cherish and cultivate holy appetites and passions. As we repeatedly do this we develop sinless traits of character.

2MCP 685
The will is the governing power in the nature of man, bringing all the other faculties under its sway. The will is not the taste or the inclination, but it is the deciding power which works in the children of men unto obedience to God or unto disobedience.--5T 513 (1889). {2MCP 685.1}

2MCP 685
This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. {2MCP 685.3}

2MCP 693
Our will is to be yielded to Him that we may receive it again, purified and refined, and so linked in sympathy with the Divine that He can pour through us the tides of His love and power.--MB 61, 62 (1896). {2MCP 693.4}

2MCP 694
You cannot control your impulses, your emotions, as you may desire; but you can control the will, and you can make an entire change in your life. {2MCP 694.2}

TE: How do you define "trait"?

MM: A character trait refers to a specific attribute of character – love, faith, kindness, patience, compassion, etc. We inherit the traits common to mankind from our parents. Unfortunately they are perverted and sinful. But when we are born again, God implants within us the fruits of the Spirit, namely, His righteous attributes of character. “New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. … We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God.” (COL 98) God doesn’t simply modify our old man sinful traits of character. “The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.” (DA 172)

COL 300
They expel the spirit of murmuring and complaint, and the tempter loses ground. They cultivate those attributes of character which will fit the dwellers on earth for the heavenly mansions. {COL 300.1}

RC 200
He who seeks to serve others by self-denial and self-sacrifice will be given the attributes of character that commend themselves to God, and develop wisdom, true patience, forbearance, kindness, compassion. This gives him the chiefest place in the kingdom of God.--Manuscript 165, 1898. {RC 200.6}

COL 358
Into every action of life we are to weave faithfulness and loyalty, cultivating the attributes that will enable us to accomplish the work. {COL 358.3}

COL 388
He permits us to come in contact with suffering and calamity in order to call us out of our selfishness; He seeks to develop in us the attributes of His character--compassion, tenderness, and love. {COL 388.3}

UL 347
God requires obedience, not for the purpose of showing His authority, but that we may become one with Him in character. We will find in God the attributes of character needed to form characters after His likeness. We are to form characters that are in harmony with the Deity. Thus our natures become spiritualized in every faculty. {UL 347.5}

COL 330
All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

TE: "Us" refers, obviously, to the author and her readers, who would presumably be converted (the author was converted, right?)

MM: I disagree that she intended for us to assume she was, like the unconverted nobleman, withholding faith and belief in Jesus until He consented to answer her selfish prayer requests.

Perfecting holiness begins after we are born again, after our old man habits of sinning have been crucified, after we have been cleansed from all filthiness. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit slowly revealing, one or two at a time, to us unknown defective traits of character. This He does during the "patient, protracted process" of conversion before we consent to be born again.

True, the Holy Spirit may introduce us to specific dormant traits of character that reside within us, in order to prepare us for a new field of labor, but all such dormant traits are undeveloped. They do not count against us as character. We are not guilty of nurturing them. We did not turn them into character by repeatedly acting them out. There are dormant.

2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

FLB 140
Holiness is not rapture: it is an entire surrender of the will to God; it is living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God; it is doing the will of our heavenly Father; it is trusting God in trial, in darkness as well as in the light; it is walking by faith and not by sight; it is relying on God with unquestioning confidence, and resting in His love. {FLB 140.3}

5T 272
Instead of simply censuring yourself for your defects, you censure the circumstances and occasions which led you to develop the traits in your character which lie dormant or hid beneath the surface unless something arises to disturb and arouse them to life and action. Then they appear in all their deformity and strength. {2T 571.3}

4T 84
To men whom God designs shall fill responsible positions, He in mercy reveals their hid-den defects, that they may look within and examine critically the complicated emotions and exercises of their own hearts, and detect that which is wrong; thus they may modify their dispositions and refine their manners. {4T 84.4}