If it is unknown, then how do you know you have it?


(I'm not trying to be snarky....just don't understand how the logic goes from *delayed answer from God* is caused by *seeking for selfish reasons* which is caused by *unknown evil in our hearts*... which we cannot know because it is *unknown.*

MM, the questions you're asking miss the point. The point isn't "why?" or "what?" were these things which, frankly, are none of our business, but that she did write:

Charis, that's my point. I disagree with Tom's take on the DA quote he keeps posting. I do not believe the Holy Spirit keeps us in the dark regarding so-called unknown evil and selfishness in our hearts - especially not for 50 plus years, as in the case of Tom's example concerning Sister White. I believe the "us" in the DA quote refers to the human race in general. I do not believe it refers to born again believers. I believe it refers to people like the "nobleman" described in the context of the DA quote. I do not believe we are born again ignorant of evil or selfishness.

How do you see it?

Charis, that's my point. I disagree with Tom's take on the DA quote he keeps posting. I do not believe the Holy Spirit keeps us in the dark regarding so-called unknown evil and selfishness in our hearts - especially not for 50 plus years, as in the case of Tom's example concerning Sister White. I believe the "us" in the DA quote refers to the human race in general. I do not believe it refers to born again believers. I believe it refers to people like the "nobleman" described in the context of the DA quote. I do not believe we are born again ignorant of evil or selfishness.

How do you see it?

Just to be clear, I don't believe this way of phrasing things is accurate. If one says, "the Holy Spirit keeps us in the the dark," that makes it sound like God is not doing something He could do, as if He were capriciously being negligent. But that's not EGW's idea at all in the DA quote. The quote brings out that God *is* working, and working to show us the truth, not working to keep us in the dark.



Here we see that God *longs* to give us a greater blessing. The problem is not negligence on God's part; it's not that the Holy Spirit "keeps us in the dark." She writes, "As fast as the soul resolves and acts in accordance with the light that is revealed, the Spirit takes the things of God and gives more light to the soul." (2/12/94)

Tom, do you believe the Holy Spirit purposely chooses not to reveal "evil" and "selfishness" in the hearts of born again believers until they are able to bear it? If it is not the Holy Spirit hiding it from them, then who is it? Who is responsible for making it known to them? Why don't they know about the evil and selfishness in their hearts?

Do you have any hypothetical examples of so-called unknown evil and selfishness in the hearts of believers, in particular in the hearts of seasoned vets like Sister White? You have dodged this question once already. Please resist doing it again. Please name some forms of evil or selfishness that can exist unknown in the heart of someone like Sister White.

Why do you wish to put things in a way which implies that God is somehow at fault? I find that very odd.

I agree with what Ellen White wrote, in the DA quote, and here: "As fast as the soul resolves and acts in accordance with the light that is revealed, the Spirit takes the things of God and gives more light to the soul." There is no shortcoming on God's part. To the extent that we do not know truth we could have known, we have only ourselves to blame. God dispenses truth as quickly as He can.

Arrogance is an example that comes to mind of an unknown sin one can have. Blindness as to one's shortcomings and need for grace is another.

TE: Arrogance is an example that comes to mind of an unknown sin one can have. Blindness as to one's shortcomings and need for grace is another.

MM: Tom, it is surprising to me that you can say someone like Sister White can be guilty of arrogance and blindness after serving the Lord faithfully for over 50 years.

How can someone like Sister White be guilty of arrogance and blindness? What is the root of such sins?

I think everyone is on an individual path to God. Some paths are lighter. Some are darker... And everyone is at a different stage in his/her path.

I like to think that I am *born again* - but that did not give me automatic knowledge to know what my unknown sins are ..... and I'm sure I have many. Personally, I do not think God, in His mercy, would reveal all of them to me - not all at once. it would be cruel.

It is my perception that God *longs* to have me at a point where He CAN give me all the blessings that He wants. But, again, in His mercy, He is keeping pace with me and my stumblings and falls, and showing me at the *right* times the things I need to work on - those unknown sins of mine.

MM, here's what you asked:



I gave a hypothetical example for a "seasoned vet" as you put it.

I don't see how long someone has been serving the Lord has to do with blindness, and arrogance. Surely you're aware of what happened in 1888. Virtually all of our leadership, the whole lot of them "seasoned vets," were guilty of this.

I'm surprised you would be surprised at my response when we have so many examples of this. I'm assuming you are aware of the 1888 history, and the cases I'm talking about. If you're not, I suggest you read Ellen White's letters from the 1888 Materials released by the EGW Estate and available on line. She wrote over 2,000 pages on this. There are many examples, not hypothetical, of exactly what we're talking about here.

charis, I see things just as you have stated. God is merciful, kind and patient with us. Thankfully so. He gives us light and truth as fast as we are willing and able to accept it, but no faster. As the Psalmist says,