Will, is this the quote you had in mind? If so, it is interesting that it seems to imply that the saints require a shield while in the presence of God.

GC673
While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

Thats it MM!
God Bless,
Will

MM: Will, I think mainline Adventism is in harmony on the great controversy, God's foreknowledge and control, the punishment and destruction of the unsaved in the lake of fire, and the second coming of Christ. There is apparently a small element of believers who disagree, who also would have us believe their views represent mainline Adventism. The issue regarding the glory of God, and how it relates to the punishment and destruction of the unsaved, is an insight especially unique to the SOP that is probably unfamiliar to most Adventists, at least, that's what I'm assuming.

Tom: Your statement, even if it were true, wouldn't mean anything, because truth is not and never has been decided by numbers. If we want to decide things on the basis of number, we might as well become Catholics.

But despite that, there is no doubt that your own personal views are in the extreme minority and can be in no way construed as mainstream Adventism. You have stated that God is the "author of death". This is not mainstream Adventism. Your views are more akin to mainstream Calvinism than mainstream Adventism, which comes from a Wesleyan tradition, which is Arminianist in its roots, not Calvinistic. Given this it seems most odd to me that you would post a comment in which you apparently are attempting to put yourself as a part of mainstream Adventism, while those of us who hold the views of A. T. Jones, W. W. Prescott, E. J. Waggoner (all of which were strongly and repeatedly endorsed by the Spirit of Prophesy) and Ellen G. White herself are a "small element of believers."

Be that as it may, I agree that there are few who see the beauty in God's character, and it has always been Satan's plan to keep that beauty from being seen. However, I also believe that more and more are seeing the truth about God, and that the number of this "small element" is daily increasing, and this "element" also includes non-SDA's. I'm planning to post some things from a non-SDA author who writes things which are viturually indistinguishable from what Ty Gibson has wrote, and also EGW (perhaps most notably in her article "God manifest in the flesh").

Thank for your answer to my questions, MM. You state that Lucifer did nothing more or less than what God foresaw, and that he did do something God wished he hadsn't done. You wrote:

quote:

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Yes, Lucifer did something God wished he hadn’t done, namely, sin and rebel.

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I'm having trouble what you mean by "wished" here. Since Lucifer would do nothing different in any degree that exactly that for which God had created Him, given that he does nothing more or less that what God foresaw he would do, in what sense can it be said that God "wished" Lucifer didn't do what God always knew He would? In the sense of "I wish I hadn't created Lucifer the way I did"?

At any rate, just to make clear, from your answers I am understanding that you are indeed asserting, ( and hence in agreement with me if this is true) that Lucifer did in fact put into action a plan which was contrary to God's plan. Hence it *is* possible for us to act contrary to God's will and institute plans that He "wishes" we wouldn't do. Correct?

Tom states:

"But despite that, there is no doubt that your own personal views are in the extreme minority and can be in no way construed as mainstream Adventism. You have stated that God is the "author of death". This is not mainstream Adventism. Your views are more akin to mainstream Calvinism than mainstream Adventism, which comes from a Wesleyan tradition, which is Arminianist in its roots, not Calvinistic. Given this it seems most odd to me that you would post a comment in which you apparently are attempting to put yourself as a part of mainstream Adventism, while those of us who hold the views of A. T. Jones, W. W. Prescott, E. J. Waggoner (all of which were strongly and repeatedly endorsed by the Spirit of Prophesy) and Ellen G. White herself are a "small element of believers."

I see this as a very clear revelation of the thousands of posts I have read of MM's over the years. Thank you for boiling it done to the bare bones.

Tom, the quote "God is the author of death" must be understood in its broader context. Divorced from its context it does, indeed, sound absurd. Again, sin and death were not possible before God created beings capable of sinning and dying. I assume you agree with this basic premise. God knew in advance, before He started creating FMAs, that men and angels would sin and rebel. I assume you disagree with this basic premise.

God knows the end from the beginning, like watching a rerun. I know for a fact that you disagree with this basic premise. In spite of the fact God knew men and angels would sin, and would, therefore, have to die in the lake of fire, He chose to create them anyhow. He could have decided against creating FMAs, and sin and death never would have occurred. But that’s not what happened. The moment God chose to create men and angels, sin and death were inevitable. I assume you disagree with this basic premise.

God is the author of life. All life originates with God. Only God can sustain life. I assume you agree with this basic premise. When God chose to bestow life upon beings, who He knew in advance would sin and rebel, He created a situation where death was inevitable. Here is where it gets tricky. This is the part about the creation of men and angels that is shrouded in mystery. They were made perfect and holy, so why they chose to sin and rebel is unexplainable, a total mystery. Nevertheless, God foresaw it.

“But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created.”

God foresaw the fall of men and angels. His plan for the universe accommodated it, but in no way is God to blame for the existence of the great controversy. Yes, if God hadn’t created them in the first place, sin and death would have been impossible. So, in one sense, God created a situation where sin and death was inevitable (not just possible). But He did not create them or cause them to fall. There was nothing wrong with how they were designed or created. They were perfectly suited to a life of happiness and holiness. The fact they fell is a great mystery. That God foresaw it and chose to create them anyhow is not a mystery. "... for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness."

“Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin.”

What I was taking issue with, MM, was your apparent desire to place yourself as a part of Mainstream Adventism, while place others, who have expressed the following view:

quote:

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This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

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MM, you have a number of ideas which are not mainstream. I just picked one at random. Asserting that God has killed billions upon billions of people is another. There's a whole long list. I can post them if you're interested.

The whole point is moot anyway, because, as I pointed out in the post you are responding to, truth is not decided by numbers. If we believe it does, then we should become Catholics. If we don't, then why bring up arguments that "I am mainstream, but you aren't."

Tell us, please, MM:

Is God killing your fellow Arizonians in this heat wave?

Would you go on your local TV and state that?

If not, why not?

Is it His will that little old ladies die gasping for breath in sweltering heat? Would you say that if ask to preach their funerals?

First and foremost I think some of the mudslinging to MM needs to tone down abit in regards to who is in control. Seriously Phil to put words in his mouth is far fetched.
One thing no one seems to grasp is that any little old lady who dies and is in Christ will come up in the first resurrection, so its a moot point. Its not about us, but about the Glory of His Name, so if you sleep the sleep of death that Christ can wake you up from.. you'll sleep, if you make it through then you do and Praise God for that!
His wrath will be poured out as we read in Revelation on the wicked, He wiped out all but 8 people, and even regretted creating the people that populated the pre-flood world, yet He had a remnant, who hearkened to the voice of God and lived, He turned Sodom & Gomorrah into a pile of ash.
God can and does do mamy things our finite minds do not grasp, and He wants us to live He knows what we are going through. He knows the end from the beginning. No where in the Bible is it stated that God is not in control, no where in the Bible is it stated that He does not destroy the wicked, ad we see in the Bible that he will give people over to their own lusts, and deceit, and He will hand them over to satan as well. he is not a robot who can only create, and save. He made the sun go backwards, and stopped time for starters.
God Bless,
Will

I agree that we should watch our rhetoric, and sometimes Phil does come across to me as a bit sharp. However, this is not, IMO, one of these times. Phil did not put words in MM's mouth, but simply asked questions, and questions which are pertinent.

When one asserts that God is in control, what does that mean? Neither Phil nor I nor John B. has ever asserted, to the best of my knowledge, that God is not in control. Now what we mean by saying that God is in control, and what MM means, are very different, and Phil's questions are getting to the nitty gritty of what this difference is.

I'd ask you the same question as well. When you say that God is in control, what does that mean? Was it according to God's plan that sin should exist? Did He plan for Adam and Eve to sin? Or was that something which happened which was against His will?