God did not plan for Adam & Eve to sin, nor did He plan for sin to exist. A house cannot be divided or it will fall.
God gave all His created creatures freedom of choice, and Lucifer in heaven chose to want to topple God by wanting to be like the Most High, and that serpent, the devil and satan were cast out of heaven. Eve was deceived, and Adam followed shortly thereafter because he hearkened to the voice of his wife. Both chose their allegiance, and disobeyed God.
God knows the end from the beginning, and had a plan to work this out, but it cost the life of His only begotten Son, thus the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.
As for getting to the nitty gritty, I hardly call statements like "Does God want little old ladies to die in a heatwave" the zenith of any discussion.
God Bless,
Will

Tom, did I get it right? Did I accurately state which premises you agree with and which ones you disagree with? Mainstream Adventism. Does it matter? Well, it depends on the situation, right? No man is an island. We are accountable to one another. God is leading a church, not one or two individuals. The majority is not always wrong. There is usually safety in a multitude of counselors.

5T 293
There are a thousand temptations in disguise prepared for those who have the light of truth; and the only safety for any of us is in receiving no new doctrine, no new interpretation of the Scriptures, without first submitting it to brethren of experience. Lay it before them in a humble, teachable spirit, with earnest prayer; and if they see no light in it, yield to their judgment; for "in the multitude of counselors there is safety." {5T 293.1}

You keep asking if God planned for sin to exist, for men and angels to sin and rebel and die. Not in the sense that He wanted it to happen or that He thought it was necessary in order to safeguard against a repetition of it in the future. God foresaw it, and yet He chose to go through with it anyhow. As a result of His decision to create beings who would sin and rebel, who would have to be punished and destroyed in the lake of fire, sin and death were inevitable. Therefore, because God is merciful and just, His plan accommodated the great controversy and the plan of salvation.

Will, again, thank you for stating the truth so clearly, and so plainly. It is difficult, at times, to reconcile Sister White's many, and seemingly contradictory, statements concerning the glory of God, the lake of fire, and the future fate of the unsaved. It is clear, at least to you and me, that the glory of God and fire and brimstone are all factors that will be at work during the final demise of the unsaved.

Phil, there is a time and place for everything, right? It is not the time and place to explain the sovereignty of God when people are mourning the loss of loved ones. Jesus said, “I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.” John 16:12. But, if God isn’t in control, then who is? And, why isn’t God in control? Why is He allowing someone else to be in control? If He is merely allowing bad things to happen, then why is He allowing bad things to happen? Does He lack the power or the desire to prevent it? Does He care what happens? In what way do you think God is control or not in control?

MM: You keep asking if God planned for sin to exist, for men and angels to sin and rebel and die. Not in the sense that He wanted it to happen or that He thought it was necessary in order to safeguard against a repetition of it in the future. God foresaw it, and yet He chose to go through with it anyhow.

Tom: I'll get back to your questions regarding if you got my premises correct.

Regarding what you are saying here, it appears to me your statements are conflicting. On the one hand you say that God did not plan for sin to happen in the sense that He wanted it to happen, but on the other you say God foresaw exactly what would inevitably happen (I added "inevitably" based on what you've written in previous conversations. I don't expect you to object to this inclusion.) So God chose to do something which could only have one possible result. So He did plan for it to happen, correct?

If I do something which I am 100% certain will result in one and only one thing, and I have the power to do that thing or not do it, and I choose to do that thing, how can it possibly be said that I didn't plan for the only possible result to happen? How could it be said that I didn't want it to happen?

MM: Sin and death were not possible before God created beings capable of sinning and dying. I assume you agree with this basic premise.

Tom: Yes.

MM: God knew in advance, before He started creating FMAs, that men and angels would sin and rebel. I assume you disagree with this basic premise.

Tom: I believe God knew of the possibility that men and angels would sin and rebel. I do not believe this possibility was inevitable.

MM: God knows the end from the beginning, like watching a rerun. I know for a fact that you disagree with this basic premise.

Tom: I do not believe the future is like a T.V. rerun. I believe it is dynamic and open, a work in progress.

I wish to make clear that my difference with you is NOT over God's foreknowledge. I, just like you, believe that God knows the future perfectly. Where we differ has nothing to do with God, but with the nature of the future. I believe that while the future is to some extent fixed, it is to a great degree open. We truly are creatures who are self-determining, so the future is not determined until we determine it.

MM: In spite of the fact God knew men and angels would sin, and would, therefore, have to die in the lake of fire, He chose to create them anyhow. He could have decided against creating FMAs, and sin and death never would have occurred. But that’s not what happened. The moment God chose to create men and angels, sin and death were inevitable. I assume you disagree with this basic premise.

Tom: I disagree with the statement that the moment God chose to create men and angels sin and death were inevitable. This is, I believe, a direct contradiction to the Spirit of Prophesy.

MM: God is the author of life. All life originates with God. Only God can sustain life. I assume you agree with this basic premise.

Tom: Yes.

MM: When God chose to bestow life upon beings, who He knew in advance would sin and rebel, He created a situation where death was inevitable.

Tom: No. Death was never inevitable. Death was the invention of Satan, and never a part of God's plan. Satan alone is the author of sin and death.

Old Tom: So God chose to do something which could only have one possible result. So He did plan for it to happen, correct?

MM: Correct. He made His plans based on knowing it would happen, which is not the same thing as saying God wanted it to happen.

Tom: So God planned for something to happen which He didn't want to happen? Also God set into motion a course of events which could have only one possible result, which was a result He didn't want?

MM: He only had two options available to Him: to create them and deal with the sin problem, or not to create them and not deal with the sin problem. Obviously, God chose to create them.

Tom: He could have created other creatures that wouldn't sin. That's an option anybody would choose who didn't want sin to exist, if they had the power to do so. If God created beings which would sin when He could have created beings which would not, then obviously He want sin to exist.

MM: Tom, here's what you posted:

quote: I disagree with the statement that the moment God chose to create men and angels sin and death were inevitable. This is, I believe, a direct contradiction to the Spirit of Prophesy.

And here's what Sister White wrote:

quote: But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter him from carrying out his eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish his throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning; "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.

How do you harmonize what you believe and what Sister White believed? How can God “know the future perfectly” and yet not know if men and angels would sin?

Tom: God knew of the possibilty of these things, but in spite of the possibilty, He went ahead. I believe she saws somewhere explicitly that God did not intend or plan for sin to occur. Maybe Phil, the great EGW quote finder, can bring this one up. I'm 100% sure a quote expressing this idea exists, but I can't remember the wording that was used.

It's simple logic that if God set into motion a course of evens which could have only one outcome, then God is responsible for that outcome. You've used this same logic yourself. The problem is that the conclusion is false. Now in logic there is an argument where you can argue by using the contrapositive. The argument works like this: if P -> Q then ~Q -> ~P. What this means is that if P implies Q, then not Q implies not P, or in English, if this implies that, then the reverse of that implies the reverse of this. So in the above argument we have:

1)God set into motion a chain of events which could have only one possible outcome, which is sin and death.
2)Therefore God is responsible for that outcome (or "God is to blame").

This argument is logically sound, meaning that the conclusion does indeed follow from the premise. However, the conclusion is false, as shown from the GC statement you have quoted yourself:

quote:

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Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin. (GC 492, 493)

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Therefore the premise is false. This is simple logic. The idea that God set into a motion a course of events which can only have one possible outcome has been disproved. Q.E.D.

Is this the quote, Bro.Tom?

"God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency."{DA 22.2}

It does not read:

"God knew He created a situation that would envitably cause sin, but did it anyway, because He wanted to prove His powers of control. There was no emergency at all; He orchestrated the entire stage-play. He's God: He can do whatever He likes."

Here are some auxiliary verses:

"God foresaw the workings of the arch-deceiver, every art and device in his crooked twistings and turnings. He knew that Satan's purpose was to make void the law of God..."{RH, September 6, 1898 par. 7}

"From Adam's day to ours there has been a succession of falls, each greater than the last, in every species of crime. God did not create a race of beings so devoid of ... moral power as now exists in the world. Disease of every kind has been fearfully increasing upon the race. This has not been by God's especial providence, but directly contrary to His will. It has come by man's disregard of the very means which God has ordained to shield him from the terrible evils existing."{Con 74.1}

I could go on, but three witnesses is the biblical standard for "those who have ears".

No, that wasn't it (but thanks for the quotes you provided). It was stronger, along the lines of Adam and Eve sinning explicitly being something which God had not wanted to happen. Actually the fact that God commanded them not to eat of the forbidden fruit should be enough evidence in and of itself that that was not God's will. Plus the fact the we know God is good and sin is horrible; how could anyone even imagine that God would want something like this to happen?

Jesus' message was one of non-acceptance of evil. He taugt that it should be actively resisted, and defeated. Paul summed up Jesus' teaching:

quote:

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17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

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Can evil be overcome with good? ("evil" is defined here as payback.)