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Re: Lesson Study #7 - The Man Abram
[Re: Daryl]
#81278
11/18/06 05:07 AM
11/18/06 05:07 AM
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In the case of Abram, in those instances, I don't see any indication that the relationship was broken.
Do you? 1Jn 5:18 - We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not John says born of God -> sinneth not. Therefore, if lying is a sin, then that is evidence that there's a problem with the relationship. Just like unfaithfulness in a human mariage is evidence of a problem in the relationship, the same goes with our relationship with God. The EGW quote in Tuesday's study may help to answer this question. "The Lord in His providence had brought this trial upon Abraham to teach him lessons of submission, patience, and faith-lessons that were to be placed on record for the benefit of all who should afterward be called to endure affliction. God leads His children by a way that they know not, but He does not forget or cast off those who put their trust in Him."—Ellen G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 129. I don't think that quote was talking about Abram's lying. It was talking about the famine that led him to go to Egypt. Note what EGW says in that same paragraph: God permits trials to assail His people, that by their constancy and obedience they themselves may be spiritually enriched, and that their example may be a source of strength to others. {PP 129.2} The "lessons that were to be placed on record" were those of "constancy and obedience" to God. I don't think Abraham's lying because of lack of faith counts as constancy and obedience. Are we not all showing a lack of faith in certain areas of our life?
Does that, therefore, mean that we are not in a saving relationship with Jesus Christ? Here's how I see it: We are saved by grace through faith. Without faith, we have no access to God's grace. Without God's grace, there is no life.It may be hard to swallow, but that's what I believe the Bible teaches. Regardless of how you and I might feel about it, the facts remain unchanged. If we manifest a lack of faith in any area of life, we are poor, blind, and naked. If we think that we are somehow safe in that condition, we are deceived. Remember, Laodicea was spewed out. The only solution is to acknowledge our lack, then go to Him who has the gold, the eyesalve, and the robe of righteousness. Abraham was the father of faith, not because he failed under duress (Egypt), but because he eventually learned to fully trust God in all circumstances (Isaac).
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - The Man Abram
[Re: Daryl]
#81284
11/18/06 05:58 AM
11/18/06 05:58 AM
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God continued to communicate with Abram and to lead him, therefore, I do not think that his lack of faith resulted in a severed relationship with God. It didn't help the relationship, however, I do not think it broke the relationship. I'm not saying that a broken relationship cannot be fixed. What I am saying is that unfaithfulness is a sure sign of a broken relationship. And while one is in the midst of unfaithfulness, there is no safety. The only safety is to turn around (i.e. repent) and be faithful once more. Sure, it's possible to have a relationship with God that lacks faith. But it is NOT a saving relationship. Abram's failure in Egypt seems counterbalanced by the nobility of character that he demonstrated in his dealings with Lot. I don't like this statement. It seems to imply that there is some kind of balance where the failures are put on one side and the successes on the other. That would be rather legalistic.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - The Man Abram
[Re: vastergotland]
#81285
11/18/06 06:23 AM
11/18/06 06:23 AM
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Masoretic Text literally means, "Be you a blessing," which makes the Hebrew syntax somewhat problematic. Is the phrase a command to be a blessing?
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - The Man Abram
[Re: asygo]
#81288
11/18/06 08:30 AM
11/18/06 08:30 AM
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Daryl wrote It is always a blessing to have a good name. I dont think this is what it is refering to. Either it means God wants Abram to be a blessing or it means Gods blessing will come trough Abram, which I think we would identify as Jesus. Thats the ways I see about this. Arnold wrote John says born of God -> sinneth not. Therefore, if lying is a sin, then that is evidence that there's a problem with the relationship.
Just like unfaithfulness in a human mariage is evidence of a problem in the relationship, the same goes with our relationship with God. I will ask with the diciples: Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? Hoping that Jesus will answere now as He did then: Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Grace is God saving impossible cases. The feast in heaven is for sinners who come home, not saint who have no need of doing so. Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Arnold futher wrote I don't like this statement. It seems to imply that there is some kind of balance where the failures are put on one side and the successes on the other. That would be rather legalistic. Even when compared to the idea that God requires perfect performance to even give us the faith to approach Him? Arnold also wrote Is the phrase a command to be a blessing? Thats a good question, and one I think noone can answere for sure. /Thomas
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - The Man Abram
[Re: vastergotland]
#81292
11/18/06 03:13 PM
11/18/06 03:13 PM
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Arnold futher wrote I don't like this statement. It seems to imply that there is some kind of balance where the failures are put on one side and the successes on the other. That would be rather legalistic. Even when compared to the idea that God requires perfect performance to even give us the faith to approach Him? No, that would be even more legalistic. Anything that views our actions as the cause of our relationship with God is legalistic.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - The Man Abram
[Re: vastergotland]
#81344
11/19/06 10:42 PM
11/19/06 10:42 PM
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I will ask with the diciples: Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Hoping that Jesus will answere now as He did then:
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Amen! No matter what God's requirements are, with men it is impossible to meet them. But with God, it is impossible to fail to meet them. And yes, when we see the breadth and depth of God's standard, we will fall on our faces in self-distrust. But as long as we fall at the feet of Jesus, his answer is the same: Stay with Me and you'll be fine. Grace is God saving impossible cases. The feast in heaven is for sinners who come home, not saint who have no need of doing so. Here I think I see a hint of disagreement between our views of salvation and grace. The question is asked, "Who then can be saved?" I do not believe the difficulty is in the transportation. IOW, salvation is not simply a matter of relocation from Earth to Heaven. Neither is salvation a matter of eating and drinking. Multitudes followed Jesus because He met their temporal needs by multiplying the fish and loaves. Multitudes follow Him today for the same reasons, though they have traded in their fish and loaves for mansions and gold. I believe the angel's explanation of salvation. Jesus came, not just to improve our location, not just to meet our physical needs, but to save us from our sins. When people begin to grasp the true concept of salvation, they are led to ask, "Who then can be saved?" But they do not wonder how God can transport them to Heaven. They do not question if God can feed, clothe, and house them. The impossibility they perceive is in the thought that they can and must be freed from sin. (A corrollary to that is that we must continually walk by faith, and not by sight.) Thank God, the answer remains the same: With man, this is impossible. But with God, all things are possible. Indeed, grace is God's instrument in doing the impossible. By grace we are saved, through faith, and that not of ourselves; it is the gift of God. (Eph 2:8-9) But is the purpose of grace merely to provide transportation to Heaven? No. Is the purpose of grace merely to provide for our temporal needs? No. What is grace for? For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age. Grace makes the ungodly godly, the unrighteous righteous. And their newfound holiness is not limited to heavenly bookkeeping, but they actually live this way in the present. The feast in Heaven is for those who have been saved by grace. It is not for those sinless saints who have no need of grace; there is no such thing. But neither is it for sinners who continue to be unfaithful in certain aspects of life, nor for those who have strayed and have not returned to the Shepherd; they have not experienced the grace that brings salvation. The feast is for the unworthy sinners - slaves of self, sin, and Satan - who have been freed, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. So John, who heard Jesus' answer, can say, "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him." (1Jn 5:18) Anyone who finds this impossible is with man. But all who are with God will experience this blessed assurance.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - The Man Abram
[Re: asygo]
#81364
11/20/06 10:33 AM
11/20/06 10:33 AM
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Grace is God saving impossible cases. The feast in heaven is for sinners who come home, not saint who have no need of doing so. Here I think I see a hint of disagreement between our views of salvation and grace. The question is asked, "Who then can be saved?" I do not believe the difficulty is in the transportation. IOW, salvation is not simply a matter of relocation from Earth to Heaven. No, I wasnt thinking of transportation when writing that, anymore than Jesus was thinking about transportation when He said: Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. and: Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. Neither is salvation a matter of eating and drinking. Multitudes followed Jesus because He met their temporal needs by multiplying the fish and loaves. Multitudes follow Him today for the same reasons, though they have traded in their fish and loaves for mansions and gold.
This was an interesting take on 'salvation of eating and drinking'. Usually Ive seen that in reference to such who insist that eating or drinking something either includes or excludes a person from salvation. So John, who heard Jesus' answer, can say, "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him." (1Jn 5:18) Anyone who finds this impossible is with man. But all who are with God will experience this blessed assurance.
It seems to me that the essence of Johns letter is: 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And: 1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - The Man Abram
[Re: vastergotland]
#81374
11/20/06 06:01 PM
11/20/06 06:01 PM
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Neither is salvation a matter of eating and drinking. Multitudes followed Jesus because He met their temporal needs by multiplying the fish and loaves. Multitudes follow Him today for the same reasons, though they have traded in their fish and loaves for mansions and gold.
This was an interesting take on 'salvation of eating and drinking'. Usually Ive seen that in reference to such who insist that eating or drinking something either includes or excludes a person from salvation. Yes, but I understand it to be much broader than that. Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Any kind of focus on meat and drink that takes the focus away from righteousness is a waste of time and effort. That includes eating and drinking both as the cause or purpose of salvatation.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #7 - The Man Abram
[Re: vastergotland]
#81412
11/21/06 08:03 PM
11/21/06 08:03 PM
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Grace is God saving impossible cases. The feast in heaven is for sinners who come home, not saint who have no need of doing so. Here I think I see a hint of disagreement between our views of salvation and grace. The question is asked, "Who then can be saved?" I do not believe the difficulty is in the transportation. IOW, salvation is not simply a matter of relocation from Earth to Heaven. No, I wasnt thinking of transportation when writing that, anymore than Jesus was thinking about transportation when He said: Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. and: Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. It is good to hear that we are not focused on going to Heaven. I think that is a misguided focus. Note that the joy in Heaven is for the "sinner that repenteth." Neither God nor the angels are concerned about moving sinners to Heaven. Their concern is that sinners repent.And repentance is not a light matter. It is a radical change in one's thoughts, feelings, and actions. It is a sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. Therefore, the feast in Heaven is not for sinners who are merely relocated, but for former sinners who have been re-created.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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