C: Personally, I do not think God, in His mercy, would reveal all of them to me - not all at once. it would be cruel.

MM: Charis, what do you think Sister White means in the following quote? Please realize that I’m not asking you to agree with her. I think it means the Holy Spirit reveals every character defect to us as we’re ready.

EGW: One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. (SC 29)

MM: And, what do you think she means in the following quote? I think it means the Holy Spirit reveals every character defect to us during the patient, protracted process that leads to conversion and rebirth.

EGW: The wind is heard among the branches of the trees, rustling the leaves and flowers; yet it is invisible, and no man knows whence it comes or whither it goes. So with the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. It can no more be explained than can the movements of the wind. A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. (DA 172)

Tom, is it possible for a born again believer to become unborn again? The following letter to Brother G plainly teaches it is possible to become unborn again. Do you think it is possible that the same might apply to the 1888 leaders you mentioned?

4T 90
Dear brother, God in His providence brought you from your farm to ----- to bear the tests and trials which you could not have where you were. He has given you some testimonies of reproof, which you professedly accepted; but your spirit was continually chafed under rebuke. You are like those who walked no more with Jesus after He brought close, practical truths to bear upon them. You have not taken hold in faith to correct the defects marked out in your character. You have not humbled your proud spirit before God. You have stood at warfare against the Spirit of God as revealed in reproof. Your carnal, unsubdued heart is not subject to control. You have not disciplined yourself. Time and again your uncontrolled temper, your spirit of insubordination, has gained complete mastery over you. How can such an impulsive, unsubdued soul live among the pure angels? It cannot be admitted into heaven, as you yourself know. If so, you cannot begin too soon to correct the evil in your nature. Be converted, and become as a little child. {4T 90.2}

The following insight teaches us that not everyone who claims to be born again is born again:

COL 99, 100
Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God's word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character. {COL 99.1}

I agree with that.

I think the EGW quote means to say that once the hand of God reaches into and gently (or not so gently) touches part of the soul of a person, that area that has been touched is then seen by the person in all its ugliness and horror in comparison to the purity of Christ. Then it is the person's choice to withdraw from His touch, or to let Him continue.

I do not think said *acts of disloyalty* are counted against a person by God if that person has no clue he/she is being disloyal to God.

just fyi: I have a very difficult time reading/understanding most of Ellen White's writings. I generally find her to be verbose and usually clear as mud due to the Victorian-style of language/writing she employed.

MM, regarding the 1888 leaders, she wrote at times that they were in danger of being lost if they continued to resist the working of the Holy Spirit. But people often ignorantly disagree with things which are of God, especially the 1888 message, without meaning that they are necessarily in an unconverted position.

The whole point of the Laodicean message is to make clear to Laodecians what is not known to them. Even as early as the 1850's Ellen White was clear that this applied to us, the SDA church. A. T. Jones included himself. He was certainly converted, as he was being used by God to bring the message!

Ellen White prayed "show the worst of my case." She was aware that there things about herself of which she wasn't aware.

David prayed, "show me my secret faults."

Ellen White's statement in DA that I've quoted is in harmony with what A. T. Jones presented regarding the Laodecian message, and these other points I've raised here.

Charis, thank you. Do we agree on the second quote?

Tom, all of us at birth inherit hereditary traits and tendencies that are evil and selfish. But possessing them and cultivating them are two entirely different things. Jesus inherited the same evil traits and tendencies we do. They tempted Him from within in the exact same way they tempt us internally, and yet He was without sin. How? Why? Because Jesus never once cultivated them. He never once cherished them or acted them out.

Evil and selfish inherited traits and tendencies clamor for sinful expression, they tempt us with unholy thoughts and feelings, however, they cannot commit a sin. The only thing they can “do” is tempt us to sin. We do not become guilty of sinning until we choose to cherish or to act out the unholy thoughts and feelings produced by our fallen flesh nature.

AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. {AH 127.2}

We cannot eliminate our inherited evil and selfish traits and tendencies. We are stuck with them until the day Jesus returns and rewards us with a sinless body and nature. Our sinful flesh nature will continue to bombard us with new and old unholy thoughts and feelings, temptations which we must, in Christ, recognize and resist unto the honor and glory of God our Father.

The evil and selfish traits and tendencies we inherit but do not cultivate, that is, that we do not transform into character by repeatedly acting them out either in thought, word, or deed, represent our fallen, sinful potential. Our sinful potential, incidentally, is second only to Satan. But most of us are ignorant of our full potential. During our short earthly sojourn we only have time to cultivate a fraction of our evil and selfish potential.

The majority of our sinful traits and tendencies, namely, our evil potential, lies dormant and hidden within us. Again, we are not held accountable for our dormant, uncultivated fallen potential. God does not count us guilty simply because we possess inherited traits and tendencies that are evil and selfish. We are not guilty of sinning until we cherish or act them out.

Most of us will never encounter, or become aware of, or be tempted by the majority of our secret, dormant, hidden evil and selfish traits and tendencies – our fallen potential. Although they lie unknown within us, like some mysterious monster hidden beneath the surface of the lake, they, nevertheless, represent our sinful, untapped potential.

Does anybody agree with these insights?

I do.

I thought we were in agreement, Tom, on these insights. I also suspect we are the only ones on MSDAOL who view Jesus' human nature in this light.

In addition to the insights listed above I believe during the "patient, protracted process", which leads to conversion and rebirth, that the Holy Spirit "makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.” (SC 29)

In other words, the Holy Spirit gingerly reveals to us our cultivated and known sinful character traits and tendencies no faster than we are capable of confronting them in light of the cross and crucifixion of Jesus.

The Holy Spirit does not, however, in most cases, during the process of conversion, before we are born again, reveal to us our untapped, uncultivated, dormant, hidden, unknown inherited traits and tendencies - our evil potential.

Therefore, I believe the evil and selfishness that remains within us after we complete the "patient, protracted process" of conversion belong to that long list of untapped, unknown, uncultivated, dormant sinfulness.

I do not believe it includes the sinful traits and tendencies that we cultivate, that we convert and transform into character by repeatedly cherishing or acting out the unholy thoughts and feelings that bombard us from within.

I do not believe the Holy Spirit would wait until sometime after we are born again to reveal to us our cultivated sinful traits of character.

I believe what Sister White wrote above means exactly what it says, that the word “every” does not exclude certain cultivated character traits. I do not believe the Holy Spirit shies away from them because He is afraid it will be too “painfully distinct”.

Does anyone else agree with these additional insights?

Mike,

How do you see Abraham's/Jacob's/Elkanah's/David's/Solomon's polygamy?

MM, people don't become aware of all their cultivated tendencies all at once. This would be impossible. You're seriously (and I mean seriously) underestimating the extent to which our cultivated tendencies go. The SOP speaks of fights that go on for years. The fact that a person has to fight doesn't mean (s)he is not converted. She speaks of the importance of training the mind, and of the difficulty involved.

Rosangela, I believe polygamy was “winked at” in the same way God appointed kings to rule Israel. God is willing to compromise, but He never has “winked at” cultivated sinful traits of character.

The Holy Spirit will not sit by and allow born again believers to ignorantly sow and reap “selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, self-indulgence”, traits of character that contribute to ruin and wretchedness now and in the judgment to come. Our eternal destiny depends on the Holy Spirit exposing and empowering us to subdue our cultivated sinful traits of character, to rule them well with a sanctified will and mind.

CG 162, 163
The harvest of life is character, and it is this that determines destiny, both for this life and for the life to come. The harvest is a reproduction of the seed sown. Every seed yields fruit after its kind. So it is with the traits of character we cherish. Selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, self-indulgence, reproduce themselves; and the end is wretchedness and ruin. "He that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Galatians 6:8. Love, sympathy, and kindness yield fruitage of blessing, a harvest that is imperishable. {CG 162.4}

The sinful traits of character we cultivated, before we embarked upon the “patient, protracted process” of conversion, are gradually revealed to us during the process. They are not dumped on us all at once. It is when the last cultivated trait of character has been revealed and confessed, in light of the cross, that we experience the miracle of rebirth.

DA 172
Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. (DA 172)

It is when we are converted and born again that the Holy Spirit begins empowering us to subdue our inherited and cultivated sinful traits and tendencies, to keep them under control, to refuse to act out the unholy thoughts and feelings that bombard us from within and from without. “When they subdue those sins which God hates, Jesus will come in and sup with them and they with Him.” (1T 188) We are empowered to subdue our sinful flesh nature, but we cannot eliminate it. It will continue to strive for the mastery, to enslave us, but Jesus empowers us to keep it under the control of a sanctified will and mind.

MH 428
His grace alone can enable us to resist and subdue the tendencies of our fallen nature. {MH 428.3}

MH 90
He who curbed the lions in their den, and walked with His faithful witnesses amid the fiery flames, is just as ready to work in our behalf to subdue every evil in our nature. {MH 90.1}

3T 183
To subdue self, and bring the passions under the control of the will, is the greatest conquest that men and women can achieve. {3T 182.2}

GC 490
There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. {GC 489.3}