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Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8150
08/04/05 06:22 PM
08/04/05 06:22 PM
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Old Tom: God sees everything, so we'd have to be able to do something which does not exist a possibility, which would be difficult.
MM: Tom, like it or not, your view of the future is no different than mine, at least in principle.
Tom: You believe the future is fixed. I believe it isn't. You can't get much more different, in principle, than this.
MM: You believe it would be "difficult" for us to make choices that God hasn't foreseen, which strongly implies our choices are limited to God's knowledge of the future.
Tom: Since God sees everything, our choices are limited to everything. That is, we can only choose to do something which is possible for us to do. This is what I wrote before.
MM:To use your logic, we are not truly free, we only think we are free. To be truly free, according to your opinion, our future choices must completely open, totally unforeseen. There should be nothing "difficult" about it.
Tom: What I have written is that if the future is fixed, we are not free. I have not written that we aren't free based on foreknoweldge; this is what you have said. When addressing what I have written, it would be good if you stuck to what I have written. Our choices being foreseen do not impact whether they are free or not.
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Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8151
08/05/05 03:24 AM
08/05/05 03:24 AM
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quote:
God sees everything, so we'd have to be able to do something which does not exist [as] a possibility, which would be difficult…. Our choices being foreseen do not impact whether they are free or not.
What do you mean by difficult? What do you mean by they?
How far in advance does God foresee our choices? One year, two years, our entire lifetime? Does He know all the different scenarios for each and every possibility? and how each one impacts everyone else in the world? and the outcome of the great controversy? Do any of the possible outcomes include God losing the great controversy?
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Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8152
08/05/05 05:50 PM
08/05/05 05:50 PM
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Old Tom: God sees everything, so we'd have to be able to do something which does not exist [as] a possibility, which would be difficult…. Our choices being foreseen do not impact whether they are free or not.
MM: What do you mean by difficult? What do you mean by they?
Tom: Sorry, I was being sarcastic. By "difficult" I meant "impossible". Clearly given that God sees everything, it is not possible to do something God has not foreseen. "They" mean people in general.
MM: How far in advance does God foresee our choices? One year, two years, our entire lifetime? Does He know all the different scenarios for each and every possibility? and how each one impacts everyone else in the world? and the outcome of the great controversy? Do any of the possible outcomes include God losing the great controversy?
Tom: Yes, to all questions, except the last one quit being yes after the cross.
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Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8153
08/06/05 03:26 AM
08/06/05 03:26 AM
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Thank you answering my questions. But, how can you be so sure God knows He will win the great controversy?
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Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8154
08/07/05 07:07 AM
08/07/05 07:07 AM
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I'd like to insert something here if I could. Very early in this thread Mountain Man said this: quote:
Our Godhead is orchestrating the great controversy in such a way that the outcome vindicates Their kingdom and character, thus restoring law and order and peace.
I'd like to focus on the usage of the word, orchestrating. To orchestrate, in the way the word is used here, means to arrange or combine so as to achieve a desired or maximum effect, or in other words, manipulate events to a desired outcome. Now, I know people who orchestrate events, but I've never met a good person who has had to orchestrate events to vindicate their own good character. I have, however, met a lot of people who have to orchestrate things to make themselves look good. These people are reduced to such things because the truth does not show them to be decent people.
Orchestrating events to vindicate themselves is something very selfish people do. Is God selfish? Do we really want to charge God with such behavior?
If God truly is loving, just, kind, compassionate, etc... then truth alone is enough to vindicate Him. And, if He is truly to be trusted that's the only thing that can vindicate Him. Manipulation of events to make Himself look good only makes people look upon Him with suspicion and makes Him seem untrustworthy, and selfish.
Ask yourself this Mountain Man: Do I really want to live forever with a god who manipulates and orchestrates events to make himself look good? Can such a person really be trusted? How would I ever know what he's really like? Do I really trust people who manipulate others?
We all act out what lies in our characters. It's from our characters that all our actions flow. If the Great Controversy truly is all about the character of God, then He cannot be orchestrating events to vindicate Himself. In so doing He would be in violation of His own character, and that is one thing that is impossible.
An honest person is honest because of what he is inside. A theif and a liar is that way because of what they are inside. A manipulator manipulates because of what is inside them, selfishness and insecurity. God is no different. He acts the way He does because of what's inside. If He is manipulating events to make Himself look good, there's something wrong inside. I for one wouldn't want to be one who would charge God with such a thing.
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Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8155
08/07/05 05:10 PM
08/07/05 05:10 PM
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Gary, I agree with you that the word "manipulate" does not describe the character of God. That's why I used the word orchestrate, instead. God demonstrated His control when He used water to purify the earth of the antediluvians. Had He allowed nature to run its course the entire world would have been engulfed in sin. Only eight souls remained faithful to God. Had He delayed destroying the earth until after Noah passed away the earth would have been devoid of saints, and God would have lost the great controversy.
The same is true at the end of time. If God should delay the coming of Christ until after the the 144,000 passed away there would be no one left to save. That's why God says, "For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." (Rom 9:28, 29)
Concerning the end of time, Jesus asked the question, "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8) And for good reason, because He also said, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Mat 24:24)
Again, Jesus must cut things short or there would be no one left to save, and He would lose the great controversy. Regarding the Dark Ages, Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Mat 24:22) The same thing applies to the end of time.
God has been orchestrating the great controversy from the very beginning of time. Indeed, if He hadn't been orhestrating things to His advantage and to the advantage of men and angels, He would have ere this lost the great controversy. But God will not be defeated by Satan, and that's why He commissions holy angels to keep the evil angels in line, to keep them from passing the boundaries that God has established. Truly, God is in control.
OHC 252
God will not again bring from the heavens above and the earth beneath waters as His weapons to use in the destruction of the world; but when next His vengeance shall be poured out against those who despise His authority, they will be destroyed by fire concealed in the bowels of the earth, awakened into intense activity by fires from heaven above. {OHC 252.4}
DA 630, 631
From the destruction of Jerusalem, Christ passed on rapidly to the greater event, the last link in the chain of this earth's history,--the coming of the Son of God in majesty and glory. Between these two events, there lay open to Christ's view long centuries of darkness, centuries for His church marked with blood and tears and agony. Upon these scenes His disciples could not then endure to look, and Jesus passed them by with a brief mention. "Then shall be great tribulation," He said, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." For more than a thousand years such persecution as the world had never before known was to come upon Christ's followers. Millions upon millions of His faithful witnesses were to be slain. Had not God's hand been stretched out to preserve His people, all would have perished. "But for the elect's sake," He said, "those days shall be shortened." {DA 630.5}
GC 266, 267
The persecution of the church did not continue throughout the entire period of the 1260 years. God in mercy to His people cut short the time of their fiery trial. In foretelling the "great tribulation" to befall the church, the Saviour said: "Except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:22. Through the influence of the Reformation the persecution was brought to an end prior to 1798. {GC 266.4}
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Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8156
08/07/05 06:00 PM
08/07/05 06:00 PM
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Again, please notice how intimately God is involved in the affairs of men and angels. God leaves nothing to chance or chaos. quote:
As the wheel-like complications were under the guidance of the hand beneath the wings of the cherubim, so the complicated play of human events is under divine control. Amidst the strife and tumult of nations, He that sitteth above the cherubim still guides the affairs of this earth.--PK 535, 536.
Providence, though unseen, is ever at work in the affairs of men. God's hand can prosper or withhold, and He frequently withholds from one while He seems to prosper another. All this is to test and prove man to reveal the heart. {RC 270.3}
God and Christ and the heavenly angels are working with intense activity to hold in check the fierceness of Satan's wrath, that God's plans may not be thwarted. God lives and reigns. He is conducting the affairs of the universe. {7T 14.1}
These predictions of the Infinite One, recorded on the prophetic page and traced on the pages of history, were given to demonstrate that God is the ruling power in the affairs of this world. He changes the times and the seasons, He removes kings and sets up kings, to fulfill His own purpose. {1MR 49.2}
Satan himself is the enemy who tempts man to sin, and then destroys him if he can; and when he has made sure of his victim, then he exults in the ruin he has wrought. If permitted, he would sweep the entire race into his net. Were it not for the interposition of divine power, not one son or daughter of Adam would escape. {GC 534.2}
A special, irresistible interference from heaven had arrested their rebellion. Now, if they would respond to the interposition of God's providence, they might be saved. {PP 401.3}
The Lord has wrought for His servants and for the upbuilding of His cause at the present day as verily as He wrought in behalf of ancient Israel; but vain philosophy, "science falsely so called," has sought to destroy faith in the direct interposition of Providence, attributing all such manifestations to natural causes. This is the sophistry of Satan. He is asserting his authority by mighty signs and wonders in the earth. Those who ignore or deny the special evidences of God's power, are preparing the way for the arch-deceiver to exalt himself before the people as superior to the God of Israel. {2BC 1011.5}
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Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8157
08/07/05 09:26 PM
08/07/05 09:26 PM
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quote:
Thank you answering my questions. But, how can you be so sure God knows He will win the great controversy?
The answer to this question is given in "It Is Finished" from the Desire of Ages. I'll quote a bit from it:
quote:
It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe....
Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken.
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Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8158
08/07/05 09:30 PM
08/07/05 09:30 PM
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quote:
Now, I know people who orchestrate events, but I've never met a good person who has had to orchestrate events to vindicate their own good character...
If God truly is loving, just, kind, compassionate, etc... then truth alone is enough to vindicate Him.
Great insights!
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Re: Who is in control - God or Satan?
#8159
08/07/05 11:30 PM
08/07/05 11:30 PM
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Tom, you stopped short of the following paragraph: quote:
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}
Since winning the great controversy depends on mankind choosing to do something, and if God does not know exactly what we will choose to do before we do it, how can you be sure man will act his part and that God will win the great controversy?
And one other thing, do you believe God is conducting the affairs of the universe, that He interferes and interposes to prevent Satan from thwarting His plan to win the great controversy?
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