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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#81410
11/21/06 04:14 PM
11/21/06 04:14 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: MM, people don't become aware of all their cultivated tendencies all at once. This would be impossible.
MM: I agree.
TE: You're seriously (and I mean seriously) underestimating the extent to which our cultivated tendencies go.
MM: I disagree. I am fully aware of what it takes to "stay converted", to keep my eyes on Jesus, to prevent myself from becoming the "play thing" of the devil, to maintain the warfare against sin, self, and Satan, to keep my inherited and cultivated sinful traits and tendencies under the control of a sanctified will and mind. I also know what it feels like to fail, which is why I am so very motivated not to crucify my Lord and Saviour afresh.
TE: The SOP speaks of fights that go on for years. The fact that a person has to fight doesn't mean (s)he is not converted. She speaks of the importance of training the mind, and of the difficulty involved.
MM: I agree. But fighting and subduing our sinful traits and tendencies does not include sinning and repenting because we fail to keep them under control. Fighting the good fight of faith means successfully preventing our natural, evil traits and tendencies from regaining control of us. We shall have to labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive against our inherited and cultivated traits and tendencies until Jesus returns and replaces our sinful flesh nature with a sinless one.
SC 43 God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.2,3}
AA 560, 561 Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. {AA 560.3}
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#81413
11/21/06 08:34 PM
11/21/06 08:34 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Rosangela, I believe polygamy was “winked at” in the same way God appointed kings to rule Israel. God is willing to compromise, but He never has “winked at” cultivated sinful traits of character. Mike, I didn't understand. The question is not how God considered this sin, but how the people who committed it related to it. Were those people aware that polygamy was a sin or weren't they? Was this a willful sin or a sin of ignorance? Was it a cultivated sin or not?
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Rosangela]
#81418
11/22/06 12:02 AM
11/22/06 12:02 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I'm confused with your "I agree." I thought you've been saying when a person is converted they become aware of all their cultivated traits to evil, and have to confess them all, and they are all removed at that point.
So what are you saying? If they're not all removed, then some remain, and get removed as the Christian grows and becomes aware of them. I thought that's what Rosangela and myself and I think everyone but you have been saying. I thought you disagreed with this idea.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#81435
11/22/06 04:25 PM
11/22/06 04:25 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Polygamy is a sin. "God has not sanctioned polygamy in a single instance. It was contrary to his will. He knew that the happiness of man would be destroyed by it." (3SG 100) "It was one of the sins that brought the wrath of God upon the antediluvian world." (PP 338)
I searched the word "polygamy" in the SOP and it is clear to me that in some cases believers practiced it innocently and ignorantly, while others did it during a time of backsliding. Thus, some were guilty and ohers were not.
PP 145 Polygamy had become so widespread that it had ceased to be regarded as a sin, but it was no less a violation of the law of God, and was fatal to the sacredness and peace of the family relation. {PP 145.1}
4aSG 86 [David] finally fell into the common practice of other kings around him, of having a plurality of wives, and his life was imbittered by the evil results of polygamy. {4aSG 86.1}
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#81436
11/22/06 04:32 PM
11/22/06 04:32 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TE: MM, people don't become aware of all their cultivated tendencies all at once. This would be impossible.
MM: I agree.
TE: I thought you've been saying when a person is converted they become aware of all their cultivated traits to evil, and have to confess them all, and they are all removed at that point.
MM: I do not believe it happens "all at once". The Holy Spirit gradually reveals them to us a little at a time during the "long wooing", the "patient, protracted process" that leads to conversion and rebirth.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#81458
11/22/06 11:55 PM
11/22/06 11:55 PM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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Agreed! The Muslims are allowed to have not more than four wives. They claim this is much better than the poligamy of Christians who have many wives, just marrying one at a time, divorcing them before taking a new one!
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Johann]
#81471
11/23/06 05:12 AM
11/23/06 05:12 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Ok, I did understand you correctly. We're back to this:TE: You're seriously (and I mean seriously) underestimating the extent to which our cultivated tendencies go. MM: I disagree. I am fully aware of what it takes to "stay converted", to keep my eyes on Jesus, to prevent myself from becoming the "play thing" of the devil, to maintain the warfare against sin, self, and Satan, to keep my inherited and cultivated sinful traits and tendencies under the control of a sanctified will and mind. I also know what it feels like to fail, which is why I am so very motivated not to crucify my Lord and Saviour afresh. What Waggoner wrote about this subject is that if God were to wait for him to confess all his sins, until probation closed wouldn't be long enough. Instead what the Holy Spirit does is to present to us our reprensentative sins. (I posted the quote a bit earlier in this thread).
I agree with Waggoner. I also agree with what I wrote earlier, that you are seriously misjudging the amount of cultivated sin that we have, and the idea that we can confess it all, or must confess it all, before being converted is also misjudged.
The true idea is communicated here:And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up unto the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 18:9-14)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#81472
11/23/06 05:29 AM
11/23/06 05:29 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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MM: I do not believe it happens "all at once". The Holy Spirit gradually reveals them to us a little at a time during the "long wooing", the "patient, protracted process" that leads to conversion and rebirth. I was thinking some more about this, and this is just so foreign to any experience I'm aware of that I had to comment. When I was converted, God didn't wait for me to confess my cultivated evil. A girl presented me the Gospel, the Holy Spirit presented Christ to me, and I considered what I wanted to do, decided to accept Christ, and that was it. I can't recall the Holy Spirit convicting me of any sins, let alone all of them. There certainly wasn't any "patient, protracted process" which involved God's making my sins known to me. Here's the SOP quote: By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.(DA 172) This isn't talking about sins being revealed before one is converted; it's talking about drawing the sinner to Christ! What she writes agrees exactly with my experience, but what you wrote not only doesn't agree with my experience, I don't know of anyone's experience that it agrees with.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Tom]
#81473
11/23/06 07:12 AM
11/23/06 07:12 AM
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SDA Active Member 2014 Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
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I can't recall the Holy Spirit convicting me of any sins, let alone all of them. There certainly wasn't any "patient, protracted process" which involved God's making my sins known to me. Here's the SOP quote: By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.(DA 172) This isn't talking about sins being revealed before one is converted; it's talking about drawing the sinner to Christ! What she writes agrees exactly with my experience, but what you wrote not only doesn't agree with my experience, I don't know of anyone's experience that it agrees with. Thank you, Tom, for this quote. It is quite similar to what I read yesterday in Steps to Christ. I agree with Paul that I am the greatest of sinners, and therefore I need the more of Jesus Christ. If I manage to be so "good" I need less of Christ, and become sufficient in myself. I believe in the words of Christ that without him I can do nothing, so I must hang my helpless soul on him and his merits. An important part of our message is jusfication by faith and we must live constantly by this faith and by it is our sanctification. There comes a sanctfied will power, but what is it, and how does it work?
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#81482
11/23/06 12:41 PM
11/23/06 12:41 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Then why didn’t the Holy Spirit reveal it to them? Why didn’t the gleams of the purity of Christ make this spot of defilement painfully distinct to them?
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