I found your statement interesting, Mr. Mountain Man, becaue we were just reading the chapter on Nicodemus in the Desire of Ages - translated into the Icelandic language. Since my English copy is still unpacked I'm paraphrasing. Jesus is clearly speaking of the new birth where EGW comments that there is nothing the human being can do to obtain it. It is a matter of cleansing the spring from where purity flows, rather that attacking impure acts. The Christian life is not to repair the old acts but a transformation of the nature of man.

Some may not be able to determine when or where they were born again or trace to acts which accomplished it, but this is no proof they are not reborn. The new birth is further described as being drawn to Christ. Then suddenly the soul submits to the power of Jesus with joy, perhaps based on the work of the Holy Spirit over a long period.

In this translation conversion and rebirth appear as synonyms. It appears clear here that the Holy Spirit renews the mind of the person who is not able to keep the commandments. Besides it is impossible to reach heaven by keeping the commandments without conversion.

Pastor Johann, how would you answer the questions I listed above? Is it possible to experience the miracle of rebirth, to have the mind renewed, to have the soul spring cleansed, without realizing what constitutes a sin, without the Holy Spirit first revealing to us our sins and character defects?

TE: I see no difference between conversion and rebirth. These are just two terms for the same thing. Baptism is a formal recognition, or public proclamation, of a decision which one has made.

MM: Tom, please help me understand your testimony. Were you converted and born again the day you “accepted” Jesus? Were you converted and born again before the Holy Spirit revealed to you any of your sins and defects? Were you converted and born again with all of your sins and defects in tact? Were you fit to enter the kingdom of God the instant you accepted Jesus?

I was 15 years old. A girl about the same age share with me the Gospel. Before this time I was indifferent about God. I probably would have called myself an athiest. Anyway I heard the Gospel, that Christ had died for me, and the Holy Spirit made clear to me that this was true, and I decided to give myself to Christ. There was a decided change in my life, just as decribed in The Desire of Ages. It was just like that. Everything was new, different. I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ.

God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all.

MM, what you are suggesting makes absolutely no sense at all to me. When we are converted the law is written in our heart. How could all of our sins and defects remain "in tact"?

But God doesn't reveal all of our sins at once. That's just a rediculous concept. How many sins had I committed by the time I was 15? Millions? How long would I have had to wait before God had revealed them all? Years and years. Who would have the patience to wait for all that? And what would that say about God?

Consider the prodigal son. When he came back to the father, did the father make him wait until he had told him all the bad things he had done, how he had spent all his money? He didn't let him say anything. It was obvious that he had repented. That's what God desires.

TE: There was a decided change in my life, just as decribed in The Desire of Ages. It was just like that. Everything was new, different. I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ. God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all.

MM: If the Holy Spirit did not reveal to you any of your sinful ways, if your sinning was not an issue, in what way was “everything” new and different? Did you stop practicing the sins you practiced before you accepted Jesus?

TE: When we are converted the law is written in our heart. How could all of our sins and defects remain "in tact"?

MM: Good point. I do not believe they remain in tact. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals them to us during the process of conversion, and when we confess the last one, we experience the miracle of rebirth. Do you agree? Or, do you believe we gradually overcome or outgrow, after we are born again, the sinful traits we cultivated by committing the same sins over and over again before we were born again?

TE: But God doesn't reveal all of our sins at once. That's just a rediculous concept.

MM: I agree.

TE: How many sins had I committed by the time I was 15? Millions? How long would I have had to wait before God had revealed them all? Years and years. Who would have the patience to wait for all that? And what would that say about God?

MM: I see what you mean. Good point. I didn’t realize that’s what you had in mind. What I mean is that God reveals to us, for the first time in our life, in light of the cross, just how sinful and wrong are the specific traits we have cultivated over the years - not the repetitious sinning that led to the development of each trait of character. As He gently reveals them to us and, as we see them for the first time in light of the cross, we confess that they are sinful and destructive, and it is our wish and desire to be set free from them.

This question is important, but should be worded slightly different. It was quite a surprice to me when I discovered in the writings of Ellen White that we are not to worry about a single sin unconfessed when the door of grace closes. I was brought up to believe that a single unconfessed sin could keep me out of heaven. Why does Ellen White make such a statement? Seems to contradict some of what she wrote when she was younger?

Therefore I believe it is of greater importance the Holy Spirit reveals to me what sin is, rather than a sin. Jesus makes it clear that unbelief consitutes sin, and EGW states this is the most grievous sin.

Who commits sinful acts? Are you committing sinful acts while your soul is in tune with Christ? Or is it more important that you dwell on your sinful acts to refrain from sinning any more? Or are you living in sin if your mind dwells on sin?

Mike,

You said:



Then you said:



Then I get that David was a backslider who did what pleased to him instead of what pleased God. In other words, his sin must be a willful sin and a cherished sin. I have two questions: 1)Will he be in heaven? 2)Can a backslider be a prophet?

TE: There was a decided change in my life, just as decribed in The Desire of Ages. It was just like that. Everything was new, different. I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ. God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all.

MM: If the Holy Spirit did not reveal to you any of your sinful ways, if your sinning was not an issue, in what way was “everything” new and different? Did you stop practicing the sins you practiced before you accepted Jesus?

I spoke about this, MM. I wrote, "I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ." This is right after the statement "everything was new, different." Regarding stopping practicing sins, this wasn't a big issue.

I didn't say, "The Holy Spirit did not reveal any of my sinful ways." I wrote "God did not make known to me all my sins."

TE: When we are converted the law is written in our heart. How could all of our sins and defects remain "in tact"?

MM: Good point. I do not believe they remain in tact. I believe the Holy Spirit reveals them to us during the process of conversion, and when we confess the last one, we experience the miracle of rebirth. Do you agree?

I believe what Waggoner wrote about this to be correct, which I quoted several times previously. He reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. The revelation of sin is a means to an end. The end is that we be right with him. Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals. He certainly can't reveal everything at once, because we couldn't bear that.

Or, do you believe we gradually overcome or outgrow, after we are born again, the sinful traits we cultivated by committing the same sins over and over again before we were born again?

This would depend upon the individual. There's no need to keep sinning, but if anyone sin, we have an advocate.

TE: But God doesn't reveal all of our sins at once. That's just a rediculous concept.

MM: I agree.

Good!

TE: How many sins had I committed by the time I was 15? Millions? How long would I have had to wait before God had revealed them all? Years and years. Who would have the patience to wait for all that? And what would that say about God?

MM: I see what you mean. Good point. I didn’t realize that’s what you had in mind. What I mean is that God reveals to us, for the first time in our life, in light of the cross, just how sinful and wrong are the specific traits we have cultivated over the years - not the repetitious sinning that led to the development of each trait of character. As He gently reveals them to us and, as we see them for the first time in light of the cross, we confess that they are sinful and destructive, and it is our wish and desire to be set free from them.

I agree with this, except I would say that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, and that our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

PJ: It was quite a surprice to me when I discovered in the writings of Ellen White that we are not to worry about a single sin unconfessed when the door of grace closes.

MM: Pastor Johann, I, too, am surprised. Please quote her here so we can study it. Thank you. By the way, are the following insights the ones that led you to initially believe we will answer for our sins in judgment?

GC 481, 482
There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." I Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7. {GC 481.2}

Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel. {GC 482.1}

GC 620
Had not Jacob previously repented of his sin in obtaining the birthright by fraud, God would not have heard his prayer and mercifully preserved his life. So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance. {GC 620.1}

Satan leads many to believe that God will overlook their unfaithfulness in the minor affairs of life; but the Lord shows in His dealings with Jacob that He will in no wise sanction or tolerate evil. All who endeavor to excuse or conceal their sins, and permit them to remain upon the books of heaven, unconfessed and unforgiven, will be overcome by Satan. The more exalted their profession and the more honorable the position which they hold, the more grievous is their course in the sight of God and the more sure the triumph of their great adversary. Those who delay a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble or at any subsequent time. The case of all such is hopeless. {GC 620.2}

PJ: Who commits sinful acts? Are you committing sinful acts while your soul is in tune with Christ? Or is it more important that you dwell on your sinful acts to refrain from sinning any more? Or are you living in sin if your mind dwells on sin?

MM: Great questions. Not sinning is not the goal. The goal is to be like Jesus. Maturing in the fruit of the Spirit is the goal. We do not, yea, cannot, commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. This truth does not mean we are incapable of choosing to sin. It means we will not choose to sin while abiding in Jesus. So, the goal is to keep our eyes on Jesus, to continue abiding in Him, to refuse to disconnect from Him.

1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

R: Then I get that David was a backslider who did what pleased to him instead of what pleased God. In other words, his sin must be a willful sin and a cherished sin. I have two questions: 1)Will he be in heaven? 2)Can a backslider be a prophet?

MM: Yes, and yes.

TE: I wrote, "I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ." This is right after the statement "everything was new, different."

MM: But, Tom, such things do not mean you experienced the miracle of rebirth. Right? Sister White wrote these kinds of things happen during the process of conversion, before we are born again.

DA 172
Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through 1) meditating upon Him, through 2) reading the Scriptures, or through 3) hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

TE: God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all. … Regarding stopping practicing sins, this wasn't a big issue.

MM: What do you mean?

TE: He reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. The revelation of sin is a means to an end. The end is that we be right with him. Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals.

MM: Which cultivated trait of character doesn’t get in the way? Which trait, which is the result of hundreds and thousands of sins, does not hinder healing and reconciliation? And, are you implying that the reason we are ignorant of our hard earned cultivated sinful traits of character is because God chooses not to make us aware of them?

TE: ... our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

MM: If we should die in this proud, arrogant, headstrong, stupid, blind state - will Jesus raise us up in the first resurrection when He returns? If so, when do we overcome them?