TE: I wrote, "I was interested in Spiritual things. I wanted to read the Bible. I wanted to tell others about Christ." This is right after the statement "everything was new, different."

MM: But, Tom, such things do not mean you experienced the miracle of rebirth. Right?

I wasn't interested in spiritual things. The Holy Spirit convicted me of my need for Christ. I gave my heart to Him, and accepted Him as my personal savior. This is is the experience of the new birth.

Sister White wrote these kinds of things happen during the process of conversion, before we are born again.

DA 172
Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through 1) meditating upon Him, through 2) reading the Scriptures, or through 3) hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

"The soul gladly surrender itself to Jesus." That's the new birth.

TE: God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all. … Regarding stopping practicing sins, this wasn't a big issue.

MM: What do you mean?

I meant what I wrote. What's not clear about it?

TE: He reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. The revelation of sin is a means to an end. The end is that we be right with him. Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals.

MM: Which cultivated trait of character doesn’t get in the way? Which trait, which is the result of hundreds and thousands of sins, does not hinder healing and reconciliation? And, are you implying that the reason we are ignorant of our hard earned cultivated sinful traits of character is because God chooses not to make us aware of them?

God couldn't possibly make us aware of all of our sins at once. We couldn't bear it. He reveals the truth of ourselves a bit at a time, as we can bear it. I would think anyone would be aware of this.

TE: ... our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

MM: If we should die in this proud, arrogant, headstrong, stupid, blind state - will Jesus raise us up in the first resurrection when He returns? If so, when do we overcome them?

It's up to God to decide who will be raised in which resurrection. He certainly won't allow anyone to die lost who had chosen to give their life to Him.

Mike,

Then what you believe is that when the gleams of the purity of Christ make ours sins painfully distinct to us we don’t need to renounce these sins, and that these cherished sins (which are distinct to us but we choose not to renounce) won’t prevent our admittance to heaven? Is this your position? If not, what is it (having David's case in mind)?

TE: "The soul gladly surrender itself to Jesus." That's the new birth.

MM: Tom, do you agree that this happens after the three things she listed?

EGW: Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through 1) meditating upon Him, through 2) reading the Scriptures, or through 3) hearing the word from the living preacher.

TE: I meant what I wrote. What's not clear about it?

MM: So, sinning was never talked about? Nothing was ever said about your sinful habits? How did you know sinning was evil and wrong?

TE: God couldn't possibly make us aware of all of our sins at once. We couldn't bear it. He reveals the truth of ourselves a bit at a time, as we can bear it. I would think anyone would be aware of this.

MM: True. God does not reveal to us “all of our” sinful traits of character in one second. We have already agreed upon this point. Which cultivated trait of character doesn’t “get in the way”? Which evil habit does not hinder “healing and reconciliation”? And, are you implying that the reason we are ignorant of our hard earned cultivated sinful traits of character is because God chooses not to make us aware of them?

TE: It's up to God to decide who will be raised in which resurrection. He certainly won't allow anyone to die lost who had chosen to give their life to Him.

MM: If we should die in a "proud, arrogant, headstrong, stupid, blind state", which is how you described newborn believers - will Jesus raise us up in the first resurrection when He returns? If so, when do we overcome the types of evils you named? If not, what does Jesus do before they die that "won't allow them to die lost"? How does it apply to the thief on the cross?

R: Then what you believe is that when the gleams of the purity of Christ make ours sins painfully distinct to us we don’t need to renounce these sins, and that these cherished sins (which are distinct to us but we choose not to renounce) won’t prevent our admittance to heaven? Is this your position? If not, what is it (having David's case in mind)?

MM: Good observation and question. Thank you. In David’s case, he repented of his known sins. Thus, he will be in heaven. But if he had chosen not to repent, to persist in his sins until death, then he would have died lost. In the case of all post-conversion sinning, if we repent, then 1 John 2:1, 2 applies. If we refuse to repent, then Hebrews 10:26, 27 applies. Is this how you see it?

1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Regarding David, I think Rosangela's point is that you said that David practices polygamy because he had backslid. After David repented, he still was committing polygamy, correct? So how does that tie in with the idea that David comitted polygame because he was backsliding?

TE: "The soul gladly surrender itself to Jesus." That's the new birth.

MM: Tom, do you agree that this happens after the three things she listed?

EGW: Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through 1) meditating upon Him, through 2) reading the Scriptures, or through 3) hearing the word from the living preacher.

Of course. I explained in my case I learned the Gospel from a girl who shared it with me.

TE: I meant what I wrote. What's not clear about it?

MM: So, sinning was never talked about?

That's not what I wrote, is it?

Nothing was ever said about your sinful habits?
Again, not what I wrote, is it?

How did you know sinning was evil and wrong?
From the usual sources.

TE: God couldn't possibly make us aware of all of our sins at once. We couldn't bear it. He reveals the truth of ourselves a bit at a time, as we can bear it. I would think anyone would be aware of this.

MM: True. God does not reveal to us “all of our” sinful traits of character in one second. We have already agreed upon this point. Which cultivated trait of character doesn’t “get in the way”? Which evil habit does not hinder “healing and reconciliation”? And, are you implying that the reason we are ignorant of our hard earned cultivated sinful traits of character is because God chooses not to make us aware of them?

The process of conversion is very well described by Jesus in His talk with Nicodemus. Ellen White, in the chapter "Nicodemus," explains what Jesus said, in the quote that I often cite. Basically the process is: a)The sinner is drawn to Christ b)The beauty of His character leads one to repentance c)The sinner repents, and is reconciled to God.

Clearly there is a need for one to recognize one's need for Christ and for repentance. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for Christ. But He doesn't reveal all of our sins to us all at one, or all of our cultivated tendencies to evil (which is saying the same thing), but just convicts us enough to bring us to repentance and reconciliation.

Keep in mind that reconciliation is what God is after. He wants to be one with us. He leads us into harmony with Himself by revealing Himself to us through Christ. Sin is a deadly thing, which separates us from Him. As necessary, God reveals our sin to us. But this is never the primary thing. The primary thing is always the revelation of Christ. The revelation of sin is a means to an end, and the end is Christ.

TE: It's up to God to decide who will be raised in which resurrection. He certainly won't allow anyone to die lost who had chosen to give their life to Him.

MM: If we should die in a "proud, arrogant, headstrong, stupid, blind state", which is how you described newborn believers - will Jesus raise us up in the first resurrection when He returns?

MM, you should be careful about putting words into another's mouth, or pen, as it were. This is not what I wrote. I'll pass on responding to this since it has nothing to do with what I wrote.

If so, when do we overcome the types of evils you named? If not, what does Jesus do before they die that "won't allow them to die lost"? How does it apply to the thief on the cross?

Ellen White points out that the character consists of the trend of one's life, not the occasional good deed or misdeed. In relation to the theif on the cross, obviously God has foreseen that he would be happy in heaven, so he will be there. The same applies to us. If we will be happy there, God will take us there. If not, then the Holy Spirit will work to make us aware of what needs to be addressed so that we would be happy citizens of heaven.

Did God require David to put away his other wives? If not, why not?

TE: God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all. … Regarding stopping practicing sins, this wasn't a big issue.

MM: How did you know sinning was evil and wrong?

TE: From the usual sources.

MM: If your sins were not “an issue at all” when did you learn about your sinful habits in relation to your rebirth?

TE: But He doesn't reveal all of our sins to us all at on[c]e, or all of our cultivated tendencies to evil (which is saying the same thing), but just convicts us enough to bring us to repentance and reconciliation.

MM: Are you implying that God sorts through our cultivated traits of character and decides which ones to reveal to us during the process of conversion and which ones He wants to reveal to us after we are born again?

TE: Sin is a deadly thing, which separates us from Him. As necessary, God reveals our sin to us.

MM: I agree. But you keep saying God permits us to retain certain sinful habits until after we are born again, that He doesn’t reveal them to us until later on.

In the following passage Sister White spells out what happens during the process of conversion, before rebirth happens. Do you agree? Or, do you believe this passage also pin-points the moment rebirth happens? If so, please point out where.

SC 26-29
Christ is the source of every right impulse. He is the only one that can implant in the heart enmity against sin. Every desire for truth and purity, every conviction of our own sinfulness, is an evidence that His Spirit is moving upon our hearts. {SC 26.3}

Jesus has said, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32. Christ must be revealed to the sinner as the Saviour dying for the sins of the world; and as we behold the Lamb of God upon the cross of Calvary, the mystery of redemption begins to unfold to our minds and the goodness of God leads us to repentance. In dying for sinners, Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul. {SC 26.4}

It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?" {SC 27.1}

The sinner may resist this love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus; a knowledge of the plan of salvation will lead him to the foot of the cross in repentance for his sins, which have caused the sufferings of God's dear Son. {SC 27.2}

The same divine mind that is working upon the things of nature is speaking to the hearts of men and creating an inexpressible craving for something they have not. The things of the world cannot satisfy their longing. The Spirit of God is pleading with them to seek for those things that alone can give peace and rest--the grace of Christ, the joy of holiness. Through influences seen and unseen, our Saviour is constantly at work to attract the minds of men from the unsatisfying pleasures of sin to the infinite blessings that may be theirs in Him. To all these souls, who are vainly seeking to drink from the broken cisterns of this world, the divine message is addressed, "Let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17. {SC 28.1}

You who in heart long for something better than this world can give, recognize this longing as the voice of God to your soul. Ask Him to give you repentance, to reveal Christ to you in His infinite love, in His perfect purity. In the Saviour's life the principles of God's law--love to God and man--were perfectly exemplified. Benevolence, unselfish love, was the life of His soul. It is as we behold Him, as the light from our Saviour falls upon us, that we see the sinfulness of our own hearts. {SC 28.2}

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness. {SC 28.3}

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

MM: If we should die in a "proud, arrogant, headstrong, stupid, blind state", which is how you described newborn believers - will Jesus raise us up in the first resurrection when He returns?

TE: MM, you should be careful about putting words into another's mouth, or pen, as it were. This is not what I wrote. I'll pass on responding to this since it has nothing to do with what I wrote.

MM: Sorry about the quotation marks I included. Here’s what you actually posted:

TE: ... our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

MM: So, if we should die in this state are we lost or saved?

TE: If we will be happy there, God will take us there. If not, then the Holy Spirit will work to make us aware of what needs to be addressed so that we would be happy citizens of heaven.

MM: Are pride and arrogance sinful traits that would need to be addressed before we die if hope to be happy citizens in heaven?

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

From glory to glory!

2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

We are changed by the glory that excelleth, not by raking through the past glory, much less muck.