I like it, John. We are changed from "glory to glory", from "faith to faith", and "grace for grace" - not from greater sins to lesser sins. Sanctification is "an advance from one stage of perfection to another" - not from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection.

John
1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romns
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

ML 250
This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}

MM: If we should die in a "proud, arrogant, headstrong, stupid, blind state", which is how you described newborn believers - will Jesus raise us up in the first resurrection when He returns?

TE: MM, you should be careful about putting words into another's mouth, or pen, as it were. This is not what I wrote. I'll pass on responding to this since it has nothing to do with what I wrote.

MM: Sorry about the quotation marks I included. Here’s what you actually posted:

TE: ... our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

MM: So, if we should die in this state are we lost or saved?

I answered this. I answered that God knows if we would be happy in heaven or not, and will take us to heaven if so. If not, He will woo us to repent.

Let's take Luther as an example. He was certainly headstrong, stupid and blind regarding certain things, wouldn't you agree? For example, Jews. Yet he will be in heaven. So there's an example that it's possible to be headstrong, arrogant and blind, at least to some extent, yet be taken to heaven.

TE: If we will be happy there, God will take us there. If not, then the Holy Spirit will work to make us aware of what needs to be addressed so that we would be happy citizens of heaven.

MM: Are pride and arrogance sinful traits that would need to be addressed before we die if hope to be happy citizens in heaven?

I think pride and arrogance would get in the way of being happy citizens in heaven. Happily we may be healed by contemplating the life of Christ, who was meek and humble (just like God)

Yes, why not? Why not, if polygamy is a sin, a transgression of the 7th commandment? Why was he not rebuked for having several wives, but was rebuked for having committed adultery with Bathsheba? Besides, why couldn't a male servant or one of his wives warm him in his deathbed, instead of this being done by a beautiful virgin?

TE: So there's an example that it's possible to be headstrong, arrogant and blind, at least to some extent, yet be taken to heaven. ... I think pride and arrogance would get in the way of being happy citizens in heaven.

MM: Did Luther overcome his arrogance before he died? Did the theif on the cross overcome any of his sinful habits before he died? If not, how can you be sure they would be happy in heaven?

PS - You overlooked a post on the previous page.

Rosangela, the only thing I can think of is that God is willing to "wink at" certain sins. He chooses His battles wisely.

TE: God did not make known to me all my sins. I don't remember this being an issue at all. … Regarding stopping practicing sins, this wasn't a big issue.

MM: How did you know sinning was evil and wrong?

TE: From the usual sources.

MM: If your sins were not “an issue at all” when did you learn about your sinful habits in relation to your rebirth?

Before and after.

TE: But He doesn't reveal all of our sins to us all at on[c]e, or all of our cultivated tendencies to evil (which is saying the same thing), but just convicts us enough to bring us to repentance and reconciliation.

MM: Are you implying that God sorts through our cultivated traits of character and decides which ones to reveal to us during the process of conversion and which ones He wants to reveal to us after we are born again?

Well I don't think God needs to "sort" through these things. I think He just knows how to motivate us to repent.

TE: Sin is a deadly thing, which separates us from Him. As necessary, God reveals our sin to us.

MM: I agree. But you keep saying God permits us to retain certain sinful habits until after we are born again, that He doesn’t reveal them to us until later on.

I wouldn't put it this way. It's not a matter of God "permiting" us to retain certain sinful habits. What God does is related in the DA passage I've quoted many times. He reveals Christ to us, drawing us to Him, motivating us to repent. When we respond to His Spirit, he creates a new spirit in us, writing the law in our hearts. We being a walk with Him. As we walk with Him, God reveals more things about ourselves.

Ellen White prayed that God would reveal to her the worst of her case. She was aware that there things about herself of which she was unaware. And she was a prophet! David prayed that God would reveal to him his secret faults. Ellen White wrote that God would have us renounce the selfishness that leads us to Him. All of these demonstrate that there our sins we commit that we are unaware of.

Surely you must know this by personal experience. I can't believe that you could have been converted and at no point ever been convicted of some sin that you didn't know was a sin at the time you were converted. It's also hard to believe that now, as we speak (so to speak), that you wouldn't recognize that there are things your are doing now of which you are unaware which are not as they could be.

In the following passage Sister White spells out what happens during the process of conversion, before rebirth happens. Do you agree? Or, do you believe this passage also pin-points the moment rebirth happens? If so, please point out where.

MM, there's no need to ask me if I agree with Sister White's explanation of something. If you want ask me if I agree with your interpretation of something she's written that's fine, but please don't ask me if I agree with what she has written.

I looked through Steps to Christ and the following paragraph was ones that seemed to me to be especially speaking of the moment of conversion, or close to it:



I would say conversion occurs when the soul yields itself to Christ, at which point a new heart is created. It's preceded by repentance, and there are evidences which follow. What especially motivates the soul to yield to Christ is the love of God.

Mike,

You said to Tom:


But aren't you expressing the same concept when you say that God is willing to "wink at" certain sins?

MM: If your sins were not “an issue at all” when did you learn about your sinful habits in relation to your rebirth?

TE: Before and after.

MM: That makes more sense to me. I was having a hard time believing the Holy Spirit chose not to reveal to you any of your sinful habits.

………………..

MM: Are you implying that God sorts through our cultivated traits of character and decides which ones to reveal to us during the process of conversion and which ones He wants to reveal to us after we are born again?

TE: Well I don't think God needs to "sort" through these things. I think He just knows how to motivate us to repent. … I wouldn't put it this way. It's not a matter of God "permiting" us to retain certain sinful habits.

MM: So, God chooses which sinful habits to motivate us to repent and which one not to? And, pride and arrogance and selfishness are types of sinful habits God may choose not to reveal to us until however long after we are born again, as long as 50 plus years in the case of Sister White? Does God ever reveal to us all of our sinful habits? Or, is it possible to die in and with our sinful habits unrevealed and in tact?

……………………

TE: Surely you must know this by personal experience. I can't believe that you could have been converted and at no point ever been convicted of some sin that you didn't know was a sin at the time you were converted.

MM: Truthfully? I was one of those persons Sister White describes as burying the old man alive when I got baptized and joined the church. I was told I was converted and born again. And I believed it. But I was sadly mistaken. I was just as faulty and defective after I was “born again”.

At first, I was concerned about it and sought counsel from the pastor. But he convinced me that post-conversion sinning is normal, that sanctification is a lifelong process of gradually outgrowing and overcoming our sinful habits. He encouraged me to be patient with myself, not to expect God to miraculously eliminate my sinful habits.

I bought it hook, line, and sinker. So, for 13 years I taught myself to be tolerant with my frequent failures, comforting myself that God would eventually give me the victory over my sinful habits. Meanwhile, my poor wife and children bore the brunt of my imperfections, which, as I eventually discovered, I did not need to carry about. I was impatient with my wife and my children. I was demanding and overbearing.

But I tolerated it because I was patiently waiting for God to give me the victory, which I expected to happen gradually, which it seemed to be doing, that is, my impatience appeared to be decreasing and diminishing, at least in duration and intensity. I was the only one, though, who thought so. My poor, precious family continued to suffer as if the truth were wholly unknown to me.

FLB 140
We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. {FLB 140.4}

……………………….

TE: It's also hard to believe that now, as we speak (so to speak), that you wouldn't recognize that there are things your are doing now of which you are unaware which are not as they could be.

MM: Ignorance is bondage. If I am guilty of unknowingly being unchristlike, then I am most miserable. But not more miserable than my wife and children. I do not believe, even for one second, that my loving, heavenly Father is choosing not to reveal to me sinful habits that I have been ignorantly cultivating for years. For what purpose? Why would He choose not to reveal them to me? Is it because I am so defective that He knows I am not ready to face them? Who suffers? My family, myself, my ministry, my Lord and Saviour – that’s who suffers! And why? Because God is choosing not to reveal them to me? I do not believe it! God forbid.

When I discovered the truth – it set me free, and I was free indeed. Just like Jesus said. Now when I am tempted to be unlike Jesus, I know exactly what to do. And when I do it I am victorious. I am kind and loving and patient – just like Jesus. My family can testify that it is true. There are times, however, when I fail to do it and I backslide. I immediately repent, though, and Jesus forgives me, and restores me to the mind of the new man, and I resume being victorious, being like Jesus.

Are there unknown, inherited traits and tendencies that Jesus hasn’t revealed to me yet, that I have no idea reside within me? Yes, of course. There are, no doubt scores of them. But I have not cultivated them. They lie dormant and untapped within me. I have not turned them into character by repeatedly acting them out in thought, word, or behaviour. Possessing these unknown and uncultivated traits and tendencies is not a sin. God does not hold me accountable for them. I believe it was these things that Sister White had in mind when she prayed for God to show her the worst of her case.

……………………..

MM: In the following passage Sister White spells out what happens during the process of conversion, before rebirth happens. Do you agree? Or, do you believe this passage also pin-points the moment rebirth happens? If so, please point out where.

TE: MM, there's no need to ask me if I agree with Sister White's explanation of something. If you want ask me if I agree with your interpretation of something she's written that's fine, but please don't ask me if I agree with what she has written. I looked through Steps to Christ and the following paragraph was ones that seemed to me to be especially speaking of the moment of conversion, or close to it:

MM: Tom, I was asking if you agreed with my interpretation. I said she describes things that happen during the process of conversion, before we are born again. Do you agree that she was describing an unconverted person in the passage I quoted?

TE: I would say conversion occurs when the soul yields itself to Christ, at which point a new heart is created. It's preceded by repentance, and there are evidences which follow. What especially motivates the soul to yield to Christ is the love of God.

MM: I agree.

R: But aren't you expressing the same concept when you say that God is willing to "wink at" certain sins?

MM: Polygamy is one of those kinds of sins that does not go away after its been committed and repented. Getting pregnant before you're married is another one. God did not requrie David to send away his other wives. Sinful habits like impatience, selfishness, pride, and arrogance do not fall into the same category as polygamy. I do not believe God "winks at" these kinds of sins. Do you?

TE: So there's an example that it's possible to be headstrong, arrogant and blind, at least to some extent, yet be taken to heaven. ... I think pride and arrogance would get in the way of being happy citizens in heaven.

MM: Did Luther overcome his arrogance before he died? Did the theif on the cross overcome any of his sinful habits before he died? If not, how can you be sure they would be happy in heaven?