MM: You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.

TE: I haven't said any of these things. This isn't even close to how I think. Not even close to being close.

MM: I based my summary of your view on the following posts:

(81638) [God] reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. … Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals. He certainly can't reveal everything at once, because we couldn't bear that. … I agree with this, except I would say that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, and that our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

(81669) God couldn't possibly make us aware of all of our sins at once. We couldn't bear it. He reveals the truth of ourselves a bit at a time, as we can bear it. I would think anyone would be aware of this.

(81733) The Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for Christ. But He doesn't reveal all of our sins to us all at one, or all of our cultivated tendencies to evil (which is saying the same thing), but just convicts us enough to bring us to repentance and reconciliation. … As necessary, God reveals our sin to us.

(81809) As we walk with Him, God reveals more things about ourselves. … I can't believe that you could have been converted and at no point ever been convicted of some sin that you didn't know was a sin at the time you were converted. It's also hard to believe that now, as we speak (so to speak), that you wouldn't recognize that there are things your are doing now of which you are unaware which are not as they could be.

(81867) Sometimes God reveals certain things before we are born again. … Thinking of things primarily in terms of sinful habits isn't the best way of looking at things either, IMO. … Now our sinful habits may get in the way of that, and God is obliged to reveal them to us when there is danger. … Maybe He reveals things to you, but you don't perceive what He is revealing.

…………………

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

TE: No comment!

MM: You are being rude! You know the answer. Please state it. Thank you.

TE: How am I being rude? I was trying to be nice. If I was being rude by not answering your question, you were being rude by not answering mine, which I asked first. Instead of answering my question, you asked me one. Answer my question, which I asked first, and then I'll answer yours.

MM: What do you mean by “I was trying to be nice”?

You answered your own question with a rhetorical question. When I asked what you thought about it, you responded - “No comment!”

I had already answered your question in the same post. “There are times, however, when I fail to do it and I backslide. I immediately repent, though, and Jesus forgives me, and restores me to the mind of the new man, and I resume being victorious, being like Jesus.” (81843)

Answering your own question with – “You were truly born again and never sinned again?” – sounds rude to me. You know it’s not true. You know what I've posted. So, why did you say such a thing?

R: Genuine repentance for a sin does mean that you will renounce that sin, that you will not practice this sin habitually. Taking new wives or having a girl every day in your bed to warm you are clearly premeditated and habitual sins (in case these sins are distinct to you).

MM: Okay. But I don't understand how you are using these insights to prove that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact? that God chooses to wait to reveal to us certain sinful habits until He feels we are ready to confess and crucify them? Please help me out. Thank you.

JS: So, God would justify me by faith even though I have a miserable life and many of my sinful habits still exist and empower me from time to time. … Why I said God would justify us by our faith, because we have tried our best to live according to the Spirit. For some people, they sin less, for other they sin more, but that is the best they can produce. But no man I believe would live sinless except Jesus Christ.

MM: James, it sounds like you believe Jesus justifies us whether we overcome our sinful habits or not. Did I misunderstand you? It also sounds like you believe we will never overcome our sinful habits. Is that right? What do you think the following quotes teach us about it?

“No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty.” (1SM 396)

“God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.” (FW 100)

“It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.” (1SM 397)

“‘If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword.’ These words are true. Exact obedience is required, and those who say that it is not possible to live a perfect life throw upon God the imputation of injustice and untruth.” (1MR 369)

MM: You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.

TE: I haven't said any of these things. This isn't even close to how I think. Not even close to being close.

MM: I based my summary of your view on the following posts:

(81638) [God] reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. … Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals. He certainly can't reveal everything at once, because we couldn't bear that. … I agree with this, except I would say that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, and that our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.

(81669) God couldn't possibly make us aware of all of our sins at once. We couldn't bear it. He reveals the truth of ourselves a bit at a time, as we can bear it. I would think anyone would be aware of this.

(81733) The Holy Spirit convicts us of our need for Christ. But He doesn't reveal all of our sins to us all at one, or all of our cultivated tendencies to evil (which is saying the same thing), but just convicts us enough to bring us to repentance and reconciliation. … As necessary, God reveals our sin to us.

(81809) As we walk with Him, God reveals more things about ourselves. … I can't believe that you could have been converted and at no point ever been convicted of some sin that you didn't know was a sin at the time you were converted. It's also hard to believe that now, as we speak (so to speak), that you wouldn't recognize that there are things your are doing now of which you are unaware which are not as they could be.

(81867) Sometimes God reveals certain things before we are born again. … Thinking of things primarily in terms of sinful habits isn't the best way of looking at things either, IMO. … Now our sinful habits may get in the way of that, and God is obliged to reveal them to us when there is danger. … Maybe He reveals things to you, but you don't perceive what He is revealing.

I agree with the things I wrote. I don't see the similarity with your summary, however.

…………………

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

TE: No comment!

MM: You are being rude! You know the answer. Please state it. Thank you.

TE: How am I being rude? I was trying to be nice. If I was being rude by not answering your question, you were being rude by not answering mine, which I asked first. Instead of answering my question, you asked me one. Answer my question, which I asked first, and then I'll answer yours.

MM: What do you mean by “I was trying to be nice”?

You answered your own question with a rhetorical question. When I asked what you thought about it, you responded - “No comment!”

I had already answered your question in the same post. “There are times, however, when I fail to do it and I backslide. I immediately repent, though, and Jesus forgives me, and restores me to the mind of the new man, and I resume being victorious, being like Jesus.” (81843)

Answering your own question with – “You were truly born again and never sinned again?” – sounds rude to me. You know it’s not true. You know what I've posted. So, why did you say such a thing?

I'm sorry you thought it was rude. From my reading of the post, my question was a natural question from the position you were outlining, starting from "truthfully." But this was a long time ago now, so it makes it more difficult. If you find fault with something I wrote, instead of asking me a question, and then a question about that question, and so forth, if you had just responded immediately, "that seemed rude to me" it would be a lot easier for me to respond. I couldn't even remember the context without going back to read the post.

It sounded to me like you were laying out a position that you have overcome all your sinful habits and don't sin anymore. My questions were by way of clarification. I can see how you could take them as rude, but it's not necessary to. I suggest putting the most favorable reading on what someone posts, and go from there. You can't see my body language or hear my tone of voice. I'm sorry if you felt offended by what I wrote. That was not my intention. My intention was to see what the conclusion of your line of thought was.

Quote.
“No one can believe with the heart unto righteousness, and obtain justification by faith, while continuing the practice of those things which the Word of God forbids, or while neglecting any known duty.” (1SM 396)

“God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.” (FW 100)

“It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.” (1SM 397)

“‘If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword.’ These words are true. Exact obedience is required, and those who say that it is not possible to live a perfect life throw upon God the imputation of injustice and untruth.” (1MR 369)

Unquote.

Paul said:
1 Timothy 1:15
“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”

I am wondering, how long would it take for Paul to be freed from his habitual sins??

Jesus said:
Luke 23:43.
And Jesus said unto him: “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.”

A thief whose life long live in sin, taken to heaven at the last minute? Whom even hasn’t got the chance to work out his faith.

What does these two verses taught us?

In His love

James S

TE: I agree with the things I wrote. I don't see the similarity with your summary, however.

MM: You believe God does not reveal all of our sinful habits to us before we are born again, right? You believe He only reveals to us those sinful habits that "get in the way" of healing and reconciliation, right? You believe God only reveals to us those sinful habits that we are ready to confess and crucify, right? You believe some sinful habits, like pride and arrogance, are so subtle that it takes God a long time to make us aware of them, right? And, you believe that the sinful habits God does not reveal to us are not necessary for us to know about before we experience the miracle of rebirth, right?

Again, here is what you posted about it:

(81638) “[God] reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. … Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals. He certainly can't reveal everything at once, because we couldn't bear that. … I would say that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, and that our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.”

And, here is how I summarized your view:

(81899) “You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.”

Tom, please explain to me how my observations and conclusions regarding your views are different than what you believe. Thank you.

…………………….

TE: It sounded to me like you were laying out a position that you have overcome all your sinful habits and don't sin anymore.

MM: Tom, I find it hard to believe that you, of all people, someone who regularly instructs me and others how not to miss the obvious, that you thought I was saying I do not sin anymore. I posted my view clearly. There is no way you could have missed it. Not the Tom I know. I still believe you let slip some facetious sarcasm, and that you are unwilling to admit it.

Again, I wrote: “So, for 13 years I taught myself to be tolerant with my frequent failures, comforting myself that God would eventually give me the victory over my sinful habits.”

In response to this, you wrote: “So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?”

A few paragraphs afterwards, I wrote: “There are times, however, when I fail to do [what works] and I backslide. I immediately repent, though, and Jesus forgives me, and restores me to the mind of the new man, and I resume being victorious, being like Jesus.” (81843)

In response to this, you wrote: “I think you may have too limited a view here. In particular, I think you are too focused on behavior rather than character (I mean your behavior as opposed to God's character).”

No doubt, Tom, you have run into people who argue against the idea that we can overcome all of our sinful habits before Jesus returns by glibly saying – Oh, and are you one of those “saints” who hasn’t sinned in the past twenty years?

Even if you haven’t encountered such a person, I am sure you would agree that saying such a thing is at best a smoke screen and at worst facetious and sarcastic. And, answering your own question, What is the end of the story? by asking, You never sinned again? is at best insensitive and at worst rude. It reminds me of trial lawyers who attempt to discredit a witness to create reasonable doubt.

JS: Paul said: 1 Timothy 1:15. “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” I am wondering, how long would it take for Paul to be freed from his habitual sins?? Jesus said: Luke 23:43. And Jesus said unto him: “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.” A thief whose life long live in sin, taken to heaven at the last minute? Whom even hasn’t got the chance to work out his faith. What does these two verses taught us?

MM: James, I see perfect harmony between your Bible texts and my SOP quotes. Do you agree?

To answer the question - How long does it take God to set us free from a sinful habit? I believe it happens the instant He sets us free! But our freedom from sinning is conditional. When God sets us free from a particular sinful habit, it does not mean we are suddenly incapable of ever taking our eyes off Jesus and committing that sin again.

The only way we can remain free from repeating a former sin is to abide in Jesus. That is the one and only condition for staying free. In Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. It is impossible to commit a known while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Here’s what Jesus, John, and Paul wrote about it:

John
8:32-36 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. … Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. … If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 John
3:6, 9 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. … Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You also asked - How long would it take for Paul to be freed from his habitual sins? Again, I believe it happened the instant God revealed them to Paul. I do not believe God reveals our sinful habits to us and then we gradually outgrow them over the course of a lifetime of sinning less and less often until we finally cease sinning.

God is not an evolutionist. He is a creationist. And, rebirth is recreation. We are either all of His and free from sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. “Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Rom. 8:9, 10)

In the case of the thief on the cross, he was just as free as was the apostle Paul. The difference between the two is their fitness for heaven, not their title to heaven. Paul had more time to cultivate sinless traits of character, more time to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. But we are saved based on our title, not our fitness. “The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven.” (FLB 116)

Being free and staying free are separate, but similar, realities. Jesus sets us free from sinning the instant we are born again. Staying free from sinning requires us to “die daily”, to choose every second of every minute to abide in Jesus, to walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man. “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.” (Col. 2:6, 7)

TE: I agree with the things I wrote. I don't see the similarity with your summary, however.

MM: You believe God does not reveal all of our sinful habits to us before we are born again, right? You believe He only reveals to us those sinful habits that "get in the way" of healing and reconciliation, right? You believe God only reveals to us those sinful habits that we are ready to confess and crucify, right? You believe some sinful habits, like pride and arrogance, are so subtle that it takes God a long time to make us aware of them, right? And, you believe that the sinful habits God does not reveal to us are not necessary for us to know about before we experience the miracle of rebirth, right?

Again, here is what you posted about it:

(81638) “[God] reveals *some* sins to us. Whatever is necessary to heal and reconcile us. … Whatever gets in the way of that, God reveals. He certainly can't reveal everything at once, because we couldn't bear that. … I would say that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, and that our conversion does not require that we know all about all of our traits. Some traits we have are pretty subtle, such as pride and arrogance. It often takes God a long time to even make us aware of these traits, because we are so headstrong, stupid and blind.”

And, here is how I summarized your view:

(81899) “You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.”

Tom, please explain to me how my observations and conclusions regarding your views are different than what you believe. Thank you.

Why don't we go about it this way. If there's something you disagree about what I wrote, why not point out what it is. I never said God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because they don't get in the way of our trusting and loving Him. I never said that God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because we are not ready to overcome them.

What I did say was that God reveals to us what is necessary to heal and reconcile us. I also said that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, which we could not bear. Do you disagree with either of these statements? I also wrote that some things we have difficulty seeing. In general, I would say we have difficulty seeing ourselves as we are. Do you disagree with this?

Regarding the other matter, I already apologized twice. I can't think of anything further to write about this than what I wrote before. I'm sorry for writing anything which upset you. I'll try to be more careful in the future.

TE: I never said God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because they don't get in the way of our trusting and loving Him.

MM: But do you agree with the principle?

TE: I never said that God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because we are not ready to overcome them.

MM: But do you agree with the principle?

TE: What I did say was that God reveals to us what is necessary to heal and reconcile us. I also said that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, which we could not bear. Do you disagree with either of these statements?

MM: No to the first, and yes to the second. I believe it is necessary for God to reveal to us, in light of the cross, all of the sinful habits we cultivated during the years we served sin, self, and Satan. Even the least of our cultivated traits of character prevents healing and reconciliation. Nothing can be hidden from us.

Jesus gently, gradually makes us aware of all of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, a little at a time, during the long and patient “protracted process” that ends in true, genuine conversion. We experience the miracle of rebirth the instant we confess, in light of the cross, the last cultivated sinful habit revealed to us.

Not one sinful habit is left unrevealed, to be dealt with later on, after we are born again, after 50 years of faithful service, as in the case of Sister White, an example you shared which I totally disagree with, that is, I do not believe God waited 50 years to reveal to her even one sinful habit she cultivated before her rebirth, or sinful habits she continued to cultivate ignorantly after her conversion because she was unaware of wrongdoing.

There is also the matter of inherited traits and tendencies we never cultivated, that we are unaware of. We can also discuss them, too, if you want to. I think it is important for us to agree on the distinctions between inherited, unknown, uncultivated traits and inherited, known, cultivated traits.

TE: I also wrote that some things we have difficulty seeing. In general, I would say we have difficulty seeing ourselves as we are. Do you disagree with this?

MM: I believe Jesus reveals to us all of the sinful habits we have developed, all of the traits we cultivated by repeatedly going against our conscience and convictions. I do not believe we can accidentally or ignorantly cultivate sinful habits. Character is the result of thinking, saying, or behaving the same way over and over again until it becomes an ingrained habit. Our habits is who we are.

Unless we are dead or beyond hope, the Holy Spirit is always present, wooing us to do what is morally right, and we feel guilty when we refuse and reject to live accordingly. In this way, I do not believe anyone, lost or saved, can cultivate sinful habits without realizing it. Otherwise, we could blame the Holy Spirit in judgment for not convicting us of wrongdoing. The difference during the process of conversion is the Holy Spirit reveals to us our sinful habits in light of the cross. This difference makes all the difference in the world. It’s what makes or breaks us, that is, the cross.

TE: Regarding the other matter, I already apologized twice. I can't think of anything further to write about this than what I wrote before. I'm sorry for writing anything which upset you. I'll try to be more careful in the future.

MM: I was hoping for an admission, too. But I’ll take whatever you’re willing to give up. Thank you.

TE: I never said God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because they don't get in the way of our trusting and loving Him.

MM: But do you agree with the principle?

No, not at all.

TE: I never said that God chooses not to reveal sinful habits to us because we are not ready to overcome them.

MM: But do you agree with the principle?

No.

TE: What I did say was that God reveals to us what is necessary to heal and reconcile us. I also said that God gently reveals things to us as we are ready for them, not all at once, which we could not bear. Do you disagree with either of these statements?

MM: No to the first, and yes to the second. I believe it is necessary for God to reveal to us, in light of the cross, all of the sinful habits we cultivated during the years we served sin, self, and Satan. Even the least of our cultivated traits of character prevents healing and reconciliation. Nothing can be hidden from us.

Jesus gently, gradually makes us aware of all of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, a little at a time, during the long and patient “protracted process” that ends in true, genuine conversion. We experience the miracle of rebirth the instant we confess, in light of the cross, the last cultivated sinful habit revealed to us.

Not one sinful habit is left unrevealed, to be dealt with later on, after we are born again, after 50 years of faithful service, as in the case of Sister White, an example you shared which I totally disagree with, that is, I do not believe God waited 50 years to reveal to her even one sinful habit she cultivated before her rebirth, or sinful habits she continued to cultivate ignorantly after her conversion because she was unaware of wrongdoing.

There is also the matter of inherited traits and tendencies we never cultivated, that we are unaware of. We can also discuss them, too, if you want to. I think it is important for us to agree on the distinctions between inherited, unknown, uncultivated traits and inherited, known, cultivated traits.

You seem to be suggesting that our giving up all of our sinful habits is a pre-requisite to being converted. Is that correct? This begs the question as to what a sinful habit is. Masterbation, drinking, smoking. Do these things count? Polygamy?

TE: I also wrote that some things we have difficulty seeing. In general, I would say we have difficulty seeing ourselves as we are. Do you disagree with this?

MM: I believe Jesus reveals to us all of the sinful habits we have developed, all of the traits we cultivated by repeatedly going against our conscience and convictions. I do not believe we can accidentally or ignorantly cultivate sinful habits. Character is the result of thinking, saying, or behaving the same way over and over again until it becomes an ingrained habit. Our habits is who we are.

Unless we are dead or beyond hope, the Holy Spirit is always present, wooing us to do what is morally right, and we feel guilty when we refuse and reject to live accordingly. In this way, I do not believe anyone, lost or saved, can cultivate sinful habits without realizing it. Otherwise, we could blame the Holy Spirit in judgment for not convicting us of wrongdoing. The difference during the process of conversion is the Holy Spirit reveals to us our sinful habits in light of the cross. This difference makes all the difference in the world. It’s what makes or breaks us, that is, the cross.

This sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote. You seem to be implying that we have no problem in seeing ourselves as we are. Do you agree with this?

TE: Regarding the other matter, I already apologized twice. I can't think of anything further to write about this than what I wrote before. I'm sorry for writing anything which upset you. I'll try to be more careful in the future.

MM: I was hoping for an admission, too. But I’ll take whatever you’re willing to give up. Thank you.

You know I believe that we can fully overcome sin, so I would hardly belittle you for holding to such a view. You seem to believe you have no sinful habits. That would have been a better way of wording it. "What is the end of the story? You didn't have any more sinful habits?" You probably would have agreed to this, and would not have felt offended by my asking you these questions. I apologize for not having put it that way.