MM: If your sins were not “an issue at all” when did you learn about your sinful habits in relation to your rebirth?

TE: Before and after.

MM: That makes more sense to me. I was having a hard time believing the Holy Spirit chose not to reveal to you any of your sinful habits.

I never said anything of the sort. Be careful when reading!

………………..

MM: Are you implying that God sorts through our cultivated traits of character and decides which ones to reveal to us during the process of conversion and which ones He wants to reveal to us after we are born again?

TE: Well I don't think God needs to "sort" through these things. I think He just knows how to motivate us to repent. … I wouldn't put it this way. It's not a matter of God "permiting" us to retain certain sinful habits.

MM: So, God chooses which sinful habits to motivate us to repent and which one not to? And, pride and arrogance and selfishness are types of sinful habits God may choose not to reveal to us until however long after we are born again, as long as 50 plus years in the case of Sister White? Does God ever reveal to us all of our sinful habits? Or, is it possible to die in and with our sinful habits unrevealed and in tact?

No, you're not getting my idea at all here. I'll try again. God converts us by revealing Himself to us through Christ. By His goodness, He draws us to Himself. The revelation of His goodness makes clear to us our need of Him and awakens a desire in us for Him. If we respond to that drawing, we are born again. God gives us a new heart. It becomes our desire to follow Him.

EGW explained all this. Sometimes God reveals certain things before we are born again. This is just as she said.

Also, as I've pointed out, God reveals truth to us as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. If you think of it in terms of God's choosing to reveal this or that thing, or withholding this or that thing, that's not the right way to go about it. It's not that God is choosing this or that, but we are! God honors our choice. He does not force the will. He woos, invites. If we open ourselves to His Spirit, there's no end to the truth God will reveal.

Thinking of things primarily in terms of sinful habits isn't the best way of looking at things either, IMO. Think of how it was Satan got us into his camp. He did it by deceiving us about God's character. The most important thing is to know Him. Now our sinful habits may get in the way of that, and God is obliged to reveal them to us when there is danger. But His primary focus is that we know Him and love Him with all our heart. To know God is to love Him. It is by knowing Him and loving Him that we best perceive our own sin, just as Sister White said (in the quote you provided, I think, from SC). So if we choose to respond to His gracious revelation of Himself, we perceive our sin. As we give that up, we perceive Him more clearly, which in turn allows us to understand still more about ourselves. And so the pattern continues, as long as we are willing to respond to His Spirit.


……………………

TE: Surely you must know this by personal experience. I can't believe that you could have been converted and at no point ever been convicted of some sin that you didn't know was a sin at the time you were converted.

MM: Truthfully? I was one of those persons Sister White describes as burying the old man alive when I got baptized and joined the church. I was told I was converted and born again. And I believed it. But I was sadly mistaken. I was just as faulty and defective after I was “born again”.

At first, I was concerned about it and sought counsel from the pastor. But he convinced me that post-conversion sinning is normal, that sanctification is a lifelong process of gradually outgrowing and overcoming our sinful habits. He encouraged me to be patient with myself, not to expect God to miraculously eliminate my sinful habits.

I bought it hook, line, and sinker. So, for 13 years I taught myself to be tolerant with my frequent failures, comforting myself that God would eventually give me the victory over my sinful habits. Meanwhile, my poor wife and children bore the brunt of my imperfections, which, as I eventually discovered, I did not need to carry about. I was impatient with my wife and my children. I was demanding and overbearing.

But I tolerated it because I was patiently waiting for God to give me the victory, which I expected to happen gradually, which it seemed to be doing, that is, my impatience appeared to be decreasing and diminishing, at least in duration and intensity. I was the only one, though, who thought so. My poor, precious family continued to suffer as if the truth were wholly unknown to me.

FLB 140
We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. {FLB 140.4}

So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

……………………….

TE: It's also hard to believe that now, as we speak (so to speak), that you wouldn't recognize that there are things your are doing now of which you are unaware which are not as they could be.

MM: Ignorance is bondage. If I am guilty of unknowingly being unchristlike, then I am most miserable. But not more miserable than my wife and children. I do not believe, even for one second, that my loving, heavenly Father is choosing not to reveal to me sinful habits that I have been ignorantly cultivating for years.

It's not a matter of God's not revealing things to you, but of your not being able to perceive what He would tell you, that is, of not being open to truth. It's not a question of a shortcoming on God's part, but on yours. (I'm using "you" and "your" impersonally here, like "one").

For what purpose? Why would He choose not to reveal them to me?

Maybe He reveals things to you, but you don't perceive what He is revealing. Like Saul who thought he was following God while in reality he was persecuting Christ. In all of this, Paul said his conscience was clear. He really thought he was doing God's will.

Is it because I am so defective that He knows I am not ready to face them? Who suffers? My family, myself, my ministry, my Lord and Saviour – that’s who suffers! And why? Because God is choosing not to reveal them to me? I do not believe it! God forbid.

Well it is unfortunate that others suffer because of our dullness, but certainly God is not at fault for this. But what can God do, other than reveal truth?

When I discovered the truth – it set me free, and I was free indeed. Just like Jesus said. Now when I am tempted to be unlike Jesus, I know exactly what to do. And when I do it I am victorious. I am kind and loving and patient – just like Jesus. My family can testify that it is true. There are times, however, when I fail to do it and I backslide. I immediately repent, though, and Jesus forgives me, and restores me to the mind of the new man, and I resume being victorious, being like Jesus.

Are there unknown, inherited traits and tendencies that Jesus hasn’t revealed to me yet, that I have no idea reside within me? Yes, of course. There are, no doubt scores of them. But I have not cultivated them. They lie dormant and untapped within me. I have not turned them into character by repeatedly acting them out in thought, word, or behaviour. Possessing these unknown and uncultivated traits and tendencies is not a sin. God does not hold me accountable for them. I believe it was these things that Sister White had in mind when she prayed for God to show her the worst of her case.

I think you may have too limited a view here. In particular, I think you are too focused on behavior rather than character (I mean your behavior as opposed to God's character). I don't know if you have Ty Gibson's books or not, but he talks about this a lot. Especially in the book "See With New Eyes."

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MM: In the following passage Sister White spells out what happens during the process of conversion, before rebirth happens. Do you agree? Or, do you believe this passage also pin-points the moment rebirth happens? If so, please point out where.

TE: MM, there's no need to ask me if I agree with Sister White's explanation of something. If you want ask me if I agree with your interpretation of something she's written that's fine, but please don't ask me if I agree with what she has written. I looked through Steps to Christ and the following paragraph was ones that seemed to me to be especially speaking of the moment of conversion, or close to it:

MM: Tom, I was asking if you agreed with my interpretation. I said she describes things that happen during the process of conversion, before we are born again. Do you agree that she was describing an unconverted person in the passage I quoted?



I think this principle applies any time we repent, whether before conversion or not, but agree that primarily she is discussing the experience of conversion.

TE: I would say conversion occurs when the soul yields itself to Christ, at which point a new heart is created. It's preceded by repentance, and there are evidences which follow. What especially motivates the soul to yield to Christ is the love of God.

MM: I agree.

Good!

Ok, but if you really repented, will you continue to get pregnant again and again? And if you really repented, will you continue to get new wives? Or will you have a virgin in your bed without being married to her?

TE: Thinking of things primarily in terms of sinful habits isn't the best way of looking at things either, IMO. Think of how it was Satan got us into his camp. He did it by deceiving us about God's character. The most important thing is to know Him. Now our sinful habits may get in the way of that, and God is obliged to reveal them to us when there is danger.

MM: Satan deceived Eve, not me. I was born in sin. I had no choice. I developed sinful habits because I was born in slavery to sin, self, and Satan. I had no idea there was a God until I was 15 years old. Sinning makes me miserable, whether I know it or not. There isn’t one sinful habit that doesn’t get in the way of knowing God. Minimizing the danger and deceitfulness of sin isn’t the answer. Yes, knowing the truth about God is the answer. The answer to what? - Overcoming our sinful habits! And then we can begin the lifelong process of perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

TE: It's not a matter of God's not revealing things to you, but of your not being able to perceive what He would tell you, that is, of not being open to truth. It's not a question of a shortcoming on God's part, but on yours. (I'm using "you" and "your" impersonally here, like "one").

MM: So, if we possess sinful habits it is because we are not open to the truth God has revealed to us? What? When the truth is presented to us who is responsible for convicting us? And if I am successfully convicted, am I still ignorant? Still not open to the truth?

TE: Maybe He reveals things to you, but you don't perceive what He is revealing. Like Saul who thought he was following God while in reality he was persecuting Christ. In all of this, Paul said his conscience was clear. He really thought he was doing God's will.

MM: When God presents the truth to me, and I don’t get it, whose fault is it? Is it the fault of the person God chose to present the truth to me? Is it the fault of the Holy Spirit? Or, is it because I hardened my heart against the truth? Why did we fail to grasp or accept the truth when it is presented us? Saul, by the way, was kicking against his pricking conscience. He wasn’t innocent or ignorant.

TE: So there's an example that it's possible to be headstrong, arrogant and blind, at least to some extent, yet be taken to heaven. ... I think pride and arrogance would get in the way of being happy citizens in heaven.

MM: Did Luther overcome his arrogance before he died? Did the thief on the cross overcome any of his sinful habits before he died? If not, how can you be sure they would be happy in heaven?

R: Ok, but if you really repented, will you continue to get pregnant again and again? And if you really repented, will you continue to get new wives? Or will you have a virgin in your bed without being married to her?

MM: Genuine repentance, as you know, is no guarantee we will never sin again.

TE: Thinking of things primarily in terms of sinful habits isn't the best way of looking at things either, IMO. Think of how it was Satan got us into his camp. He did it by deceiving us about God's character. The most important thing is to know Him. Now our sinful habits may get in the way of that, and God is obliged to reveal them to us when there is danger.

MM: Satan deceived Eve, not me. I was born in sin. I had no choice. I developed sinful habits because I was born in slavery to sin, self, and Satan. I had no idea there was a God until I was 15 years old. Sinning makes me miserable, whether I know it or not. There isn’t one sinful habit that doesn’t get in the way of knowing God. Minimizing the danger and deceitfulness of sin isn’t the answer. Yes, knowing the truth about God is the answer. The answer to what? - Overcoming our sinful habits! And then we can begin the lifelong process of perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

You said one very important thing that I'll start by agreeing with: "Sinning makes me miserable, whether I know it or not." Amen to that!

But the essence of sin is not behavior, but thought. It's not what comes out of a man that defiles, but what is in the inside. "The kingdom of God is within you."

As a man thinkith in his heart, so is he. Only as we think correctly, can we decide correctly. It is from our minds, our wills, that correct behavior emenates. Only when the source is corrected can there be any hope that thich which flows from the source can be pure.

You were deceived as much as Eve was. It's a big mistake to not realize this. Our nature involves not simply a bent to do certain things, but a bent to perceive God in a negative way, just as Eve did, which is how Satan presented Him. Once man believed the lie, that deception was passed, and has been passed, from generation to generation. All mankind views God incorrectly, and Jesus Christ is our only hope of seeing God as He really is.

Remember that EGW wrote that the whole purpose of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God, in order to keep us right and set us right with God. The fact that she referred to this as Christ's "whole purpose" shows just how important it is.

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

No comment!

TE: It's not a matter of God's not revealing things to you, but of your not being able to perceive what He would tell you, that is, of not being open to truth. It's not a question of a shortcoming on God's part, but on yours. (I'm using "you" and "your" impersonally here, like "one").

MM: So, if we possess sinful habits it is because we are not open to the truth God has revealed to us? What? When the truth is presented to us who is responsible for convicting us? And if I am successfully convicted, am I still ignorant? Still not open to the truth?

God presents truth to us as fast as we are willing and ready to accept it.

TE: Maybe He reveals things to you, but you don't perceive what He is revealing. Like Saul who thought he was following God while in reality he was persecuting Christ. In all of this, Paul said his conscience was clear. He really thought he was doing God's will.

MM: When God presents the truth to me, and I don’t get it, whose fault is it? Is it the fault of the person God chose to present the truth to me?

Possibly.

Is it the fault of the Holy Spirit?

I assume this is rhetorical.

Or, is it because I hardened my heart against the truth?
SMNH-6VYRUZ
This is certainly possible.

Why did we fail to grasp or accept the truth when it is presented us?

There are many possible answers to this.

Saul, by the way, was kicking against his pricking conscience. He wasn’t innocent or ignorant.

I'm not saying he was innocent. I'm sure he was ignorant, though, to some degree, because as soon as he knew the truth for certain he became perhaps the greatest disciple of Christ ever.

TE: So there's an example that it's possible to be headstrong, arrogant and blind, at least to some extent, yet be taken to heaven. ... I think pride and arrogance would get in the way of being happy citizens in heaven.

MM: Did Luther overcome his arrogance before he died?

He overcame it enough.

Did the thief on the cross overcome any of his sinful habits before he died? If not, how can you be sure they would be happy in heaven?

God wouldn't take them to happy if they wouldn't be happy, right? So that's how I'm sure. The most important sinful habit to overcome is the habit to not love God. The theif overcame that one.

Okay, that got us nowhere. You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.

..............

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

TE: No comment!

MM: You are being rude! You know the answer. Please state it. Thank you.

Okay, that got us nowhere.

That's too bad. I was sharing some important principles.

You maintain that we are born again with certain sinful habits in tact, that God chooses not to reveal them to us for one of two reasons, 1) they do not get in the way of our trusting and loving Him, 2) we are not ready to overcome them yet.

I haven't said any of these things. This isn't even close to how I think. Not even close to being close.

TE: So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?

MM: What do you think?

TE: No comment!

MM: You are being rude! You know the answer. Please state it. Thank you.

How am I being rude? I was trying to be nice. If I was being rude by not answering your question, you were being rude by not answering mine, which I asked first. Instead of answering my question, you asked me one. Answer my question, which I asked first, and then I'll answer yours.

Genuine repentance for a sin does mean that you will renounce that sin, that you will not practice this sin habitually. Taking new wives or having a girl every day in your bed to warm you are clearly premeditated and habitual sins (in case these sins are distinct to you).

Quote.
........., as long as we are willing to respond to His Spirit.
Unquote.

That is the keyword to be success in living righteously or not.

Naturally we live as according to our own will, which is sinful.
To live according to the Spirit is something we must do, work it out and try hard. But why we failed from time to time? Because to live naturally is to live in sin, which is easy, a natural outflow of our will and mind, but to live according to the Spirit is dying daily, to fight a constant 24 hours against self, and who can stand it?

But does it matter?

We are justified by faith and saved by grace.

So, God would justify me by faith even though I have a miserable life and many of my sinful habits still exist and empower me from time to time.

As long as we live with faith, which means according to the Spirit, we would be justified, even though it means we didn’t has a victorious life over sin and still live sinfully from time to time. Why I said God would justify us by our faith, because we have tried our best to live according to the Spirit. For some people, they sin less, for other they sin more, but that is the best they can produce. But no man I believe would live sinless except Jesus Christ.

In His love

James S.

Quote.

All mankind views God incorrectly, and Jesus Christ is our only hope of seeing God as He really is.

Remember that EGW wrote that the whole purpose of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God, in order to keep us right and set us right with God.

Unquote.

But I know God as the way the bible describe Him, only some time I still want to live naturally, which means the sinful way, because I am tired of living according to the Spirit or fed up. No matter how good you know God and his will, the choice is still yours, and living naturally is living in sin, so, die daily if you can, bit it doesn’t matter, God would still justify you because you have tried to live with faith.

In His love

James S