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Re: Lesson Study #10 - The Price of DUPLICITY [Re: vastergotland] #82297
12/08/06 04:20 PM
12/08/06 04:20 PM
Daryl  Offline
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It was Jacob's, which means that God's promise would have been fulfilled by God Himself.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Lesson Study #10 - The Price of DUPLICITY [Re: Daryl] #82346
12/11/06 12:39 AM
12/11/06 12:39 AM
asygo  Offline
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I believe Esau missed out on the birthright, not because of an arbitrary decision by God, but by his own unfitness of character. God foresaw this, and said what He said because He knew what would happen.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson Study #10 - The Price of DUPLICITY [Re: Daryl] #82347
12/11/06 12:43 AM
12/11/06 12:43 AM
Tom  Offline
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Daryl, if the prophecy is talking about individuals rather than nations, as it says, then how do you interpret Romans 9? (the portion I quoted).

Also, isn't your interpretation a bit circular? What I mean is, if the prophecy could possibly be taken to apply to either nations or individuals, and Esau the individual never served Jacob the individual, but the nation of Esau (Edom) did server the nation of Jacob (Israel), doesn't that settle the question? Why should one think it applies to individuals?

Also how does the fact that Jacob received the blessing which should have been Esau's explain the fact that Esau never served Jacob? (that is, as far as individuals are concerned, I'm not seeing how this is in any way a fulfillment).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson Study #10 - The Price of DUPLICITY [Re: Tom] #82482
12/13/06 09:37 PM
12/13/06 09:37 PM
Daryl  Offline
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This is what the SDA Bible Commentary has to say about Genesis 25:23

Quote:
Quote:

Gen 25:23 And Jehovah said to her, Two nations are in your womb, and two kinds of people shall be separated from your bowels. And the one people shall be stronger than the other people, the older shall serve the younger.


23. Two nations. An angel revealed to Rebekah something of the future of the two sons soon to be born (PP 177).

Already, it seemed, they were struggling for the supremacy. The angel’s prediction was fulfilled in the later history of Esau’s and Jacob’s descendants, the Edomites and the Israelites. These two brother nations were ever enemies, Israel usually proving to be the stronger of the two. David subjugated the Edomites (2 Sam. 8:14; 1 Kings 11:16), and King Amaziah later defeated them (2 Kings 14:7; 2 Chron. 25:11, 12). The Hasmonaean king John Hyrcanus I finally brought their independence to an end in the year 126 b.c., when he forced them to accept the rite of circumcision and the law of Moses, and to submit to a Jewish governor.

God’s insight into the respective characters of Esau and Jacob and His foresight into their future made possible His selection of Jacob as inheritor of the birthright and progenitor of Christ even before his birth (Rom. 8:29; 9:10–14).


The bolded part of the comment refers to them as indivuduals, to which I agree, as it all started with the birthright issue, which God also knew would be achieved the way it was achieved, by deception on Rebekah's and Jacob's part, which resulted in the perpetual enmity between the two nations. I wonder how it would have turned out, if Jacob simply waited for God to fulfill His promise. I also wonder how He would have fulfilled it, however, seeing that Jacob didn't wait for Gods to fulfill His promise His way, we may never know how He would have done it, but one thing we do know, He would have done it.

Before I answer your question, in reference to Tom's post, pertaining to Romans 9, I will need to look at that post again to see what portion you quoted.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Lesson Study #10 - The Price of DUPLICITY [Re: Daryl] #82483
12/13/06 10:16 PM
12/13/06 10:16 PM
Daryl  Offline
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The SDA Bible Commentary made reference to PP 177, therefore, I looked to see what was written there.

I found this on page 178:

Quote:

Rebekah remembered the words of the angel, and she read with clearer insight than did her husband the character of their sons. She was convinced that the heritage of divine promise was intended for Jacob. She repeated to Isaac the angel's words; but the father's affections were centered upon the elder son, and he was unshaken in his purpose. {PP 178.1}

Jacob had learned from his mother of the divine intimation that the birthright should fall to him, and he was filled with an unspeakable desire for the privileges which it would confer. It was not the possession of his father's wealth that he craved; the spiritual birthright was the object of his longing. To commune with God as did righteous Abraham, to offer the sacrifice of atonement for his family, to be the progenitor of the chosen people and of the promised Messiah, and to inherit the immortal possessions embraced in the blessings of the covenant--here were the privileges and honors that kindled his most ardent desires. His mind was ever reaching forward to the future, and seeking to grasp its unseen blessings. {PP 178.2}

Years passed on, until Isaac, old and blind, and expecting soon to die, determined no longer to delay the bestowal of the blessing upon his elder son. But knowing the opposition of Rebekah and Jacob, he decided to perform the solemn ceremony in secret. In accordance with the custom of making a feast upon such occasions, the patriarch bade Esau, "Go out to the field, and take me some venison; and make me savory meat, . . . that my soul may bless thee before I die." {PP 179.4}

Rebekah divined his purpose. She was confident that it was contrary to what God had revealed as His will. Isaac was in danger of incurring the divine displeasure and of debarring his younger son from the position to which God had called him. She had in vain tried the effect of reasoning with Isaac, and she determined to resort to stratagem. {PP 180.1}

No sooner had Esau departed on his errand than Rebekah set about the accomplishment of her purpose. She told Jacob what had taken place, urging the necessity of immediate action to prevent the bestowal of the blessing, finally and irrevocably, upon Esau. And she assured her son that if he would follow her directions, he might obtain it as God had promised. Jacob did not readily consent to the plan that she proposed. The thought of deceiving his father caused him great distress. He felt that such a sin would bring a curse rather than a blessing. But his scruples were overborne, and he proceeded to carry out his mother's suggestions. It was not his intention to utter a direct falsehood, but once in the presence of his father he seemed to have gone too far to retreat, and he obtained by fraud the coveted blessing. {PP 180.2}

Jacob and Rebekah succeeded in their purpose, but they gained only trouble and sorrow by their deception. God had declared that Jacob should receive the birthright, and His word would have been fulfilled in His own time had they waited in faith for Him to work for them. But like many who now profess to be children of God, they were unwilling to leave the matter in His hands. Rebekah bitterly repented the wrong counsel she had given her son; it was the means of separating him from her, and she never saw his face again. From the hour when he received the birthright, Jacob was weighed down with self-condemnation. He had sinned against his father, his brother, his own soul, and against God. In one short hour he had made work for a lifelong repentance. This scene was vivid before him in afteryears, when the wicked course of his sons oppressed his soul. {PP 180.3}


The bolded section in the last paragraph, "God had declared that Jacob should receive the birthright, and His word would have been fulfilled in His own time had they waited in faith for Him to work for them," clearly shows what God had declared in Genesis 25:23.

As far as Romans 9:10-14 goes, which includes verse 11 that Tom was referring to in his post, I see it in the same light as the above EGW quote.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Lesson Study #10 - The Price of DUPLICITY [Re: Daryl] #82484
12/13/06 10:27 PM
12/13/06 10:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
God's promises are conditional, which is brought out here:

Quote:
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. (Jer. 18:5-10)


Esau did not have to relinquish his birthright. Just as it was prophesied that Nineveh would perish, but they didn't, because they repented, so also Esau could have responded to God's Spirit, and kept his birthright. Unfortunately there aren't very many Nineveh's, so that usually God's prophesies come about as they are given. But this not need be the case. Just as God points out in Jeremiah 18, God will repent of either the good or evil prophesied if the one about whom He is prophesying acts differently than prophesied.

The prophesies are warnings. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should repent, and as Nineveh shows, God will happily stay the portended doom.

Here's the Bible passage in Romans 9:

Quote:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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