HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
Ike, Andrew, Trainor, ekoorb1030, jibb555
1326 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,232
Posts196,217
Members1,326
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
asygo 31
Rick H 24
kland 16
November
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
Member Spotlight
asygo
asygo
California, USA
Posts: 5,638
Joined: February 2006
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
8 registered members (dedication, Karen Y, Daryl, daylily, TheophilusOne, 3 invisible), 2,466 guests, and 13 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 20 of 34 1 2 18 19 20 21 22 33 34
Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Charity] #81865
11/30/06 12:29 AM
11/30/06 12:29 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA

On the Karaite Korner site there is a statement on the meaning of a Hebrew word for equinox that appears here and there in the OT sometimes translated into English as 'circuit'. The statement is generally quite good and I agree with most of it. What caught my attention is this part below on how the word is used in Psalm 19. It is strikingly similar here and in other passages to the terminology in the book of Enoch. The sun is describe in Enoch just as in the Psalm as coming out of a portal or chamber:
Quote:

Tekufah in Psalms 19:7
The term Tekufah (circuit) appears in Psalm 19 in reference to the sun, but here too it has nothing to do with the equinox. Psalm 19 describes the heavens and sun, which from their unique vantage point are witness to all things in creation, and thus (metaphorically) testify to the incomparable glory of God. Verses 5-7 describes the sun:
"(5)... He [YHWH] placed a tent among them [the heavens] for the sun. (6) Which is as a bridegroom going out of his chamber, and which rejoices as a strong man running a race. (7) From the end of the heavens is its [the sun's] going out and its circuit (Tekufato) is to their [the heavens] ends, and none is hidden from its heat"
Verse 6 describes the sun as a bridegroom that bursts forth out of his chamber and as a hero that runs along a path. Verse 7 then describes the "going out" of the sun at one end of the heavens and the "circuit" (Tekufato) of the sun at the other end. Clearly what is being described is the daily path of the sun which rises at one end of the heaven (its going out) and sets at the other end (its return), "and none is hidden from its heat" during the course of the day. What has confused some readers is that the going out or exiting of the sun refers to sunrise, but this unusual terminology is used throughout the Tanach. For example, we read in Judges 5:31:
"Thus shall all the enemies of YHWH be destroyed; and all those whom he loves shall be as the going out of the sun (KeTzet HaShemesh) in its might". (Jud 5,31)
Those loyal to YHWH shall shine forth with glory as the "going out of the sun", that is sunrise. It may seem strange that sunrise is referred to as the "going out" of the sun. After all, in Exodus we saw that the going out of the year was the end of the year, whereas the going out of the sun is the beginning of the day. However, this is consistent with Biblical usage and in fact the common Biblical way of saying sunset is the coming in or entering of the sun. This is related to the ancient Israelite conception of the sun which at night was thought of as metaphorically dwelling in a celestial chamber (Ps 19:5). At dawn the sun goes out of this metaphorical chamber and the earth is lit while at night the sun comes into the metaphorical chamber and it is dark. This is also the thought behind the comparison of sunrise to a bridegroom coming forth from his chamber. Ps 19:7 refers to the going out of the sun (sunrise) at one end of heaven and its circuit (return to the same place, to its nightly chamber) at the other end, that is sunset (for a similar thought see Ecc 1:5).
And, this is how it is described in the AB.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Charity] #81866
11/30/06 01:02 AM
11/30/06 01:02 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Apparently the ancient historian Josephus also says the Jews of Christ's day used the equinox to determine the New Year.

Notice that in the quote below from the Karaite Korner that the Karaites don't deny this was likely the case. They say the Pharisee's were wrong. But Christ never makes any objection to the ways in which the Pharisees calculated the feasts. This testimony is even stronger evidence for the AB calendar for Adventists because if Josephus, a highly respected Jewish historian would say this, it confirms that at the death of Christ the method of determining the new year in 31 AD was the first new moon after the equinox rather than the closest New Moon which is the modern Jewish method. In other words, in 31 AD, the passover would have been a month earlier than we believe if the modern Jewish calendar is used. Josephus statement therefore rules out both the Karaite and the Modern Hebrew calendars for Adventists.

Quote:

Question: Doesn't Josephus say that the New Year is determined based on the "1st of Aries"?


Answer: The "1st of Aries" is a reference to the Vernal Equinox and as seen above the Pharisees determined the New Year based on 3 factors, one of which was the Vernal Equinox. In his autobiography, Josephus himself informs us that he is a Pharisee, so it is not surprising that he should quote the Pharisee practice of intercalation. As is Josephus' practice he only gives the details which would be comprehensible to his pagan Greek readers. In this case Josephus does not mention the agricultural indicators of the New Year [according to the Pharisees the Abib and the Fruits] and only refers to the astrological indicators which his pagan audience would have been able to relate to. Josephus' repeating the Pharisee position on intercalation does not give it any more credence.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Charity] #81880
11/30/06 01:22 PM
11/30/06 01:22 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Mark,

The Rabbanite calendar follows what Josephus says.

Josephus says in Antiq. 3:10:5, that the Passover is celebrated “In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries…”

So what Josephus is saying is that Nisan 14 must fall when the sun is in the constellation of Aries, and the sun steps into the constellation of Aries at the spring equinox. So, according to him, Nisan 14 must fall on or after the equinox. Which means that the method of determining the new year is the new moon closest to the equinox, and not the first new moon after the equinox (when Nisan 1 must fall after the equinox).

Besides, in AD 31 Caiaphas, the Sadducee, was the high priest, so the method used was not that of the Pharisees.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Rosangela] #81926
12/01/06 11:45 AM
12/01/06 11:45 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Your reference to Josephus is different from the one quoted by the Karaites, but it also supports the view that the Jews of Christ's day, Pharisees and Sadducees, set the New Year by the position of the Sun rather than the barley harvest. Josephus is documenting history. He is highly respected in that regard.


Last edited by Mark Shipowick; 12/01/06 11:49 AM.
Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Charity] #81927
12/01/06 12:00 PM
12/01/06 12:00 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
I’m looking into the application of the calendar to the 2300 days. I’m still hoping to have something soon but it may be a while.

Regarding Biblical references to the equinox, the Karaite Korner looks at several passages that use the Hebrew words Tekufah and Teshuvah, Strongs 8622 and 8666 respectively. The former word means circuit or revolution and is associated with the end of the year in passages such as Ex. 34:22. See also 2 Chr 24:23, 1 Ki 20:26 and 2 Sam 11:1. Taken alone, we can’t say conclusively these passages refer to the equinox but they do provide good evidence that the Hebrew reckoning of the year was viewed as a ‘revolution’ or ‘circuit’. The Karaites suggest that the circuit was the repeating of the seasons, but the context and the root words point more to the annual circuit of the sun which creates the seasons.

One of the Karaite arguements against viewing these texts as references to the equinox is their suggestion that the ancient Hebrews were very primative in their astronomy. I've pointed out earlier that this is incorrect. The ancients were advanced in astronomy and the knowedge of it diminished over time, especially in the dark ages. But as late as Procopius, an historian during the time of Justinian in the sixth century AD, the ancients marked time guided by the four annual positions of the sun.

For example, in his work History of Wars that documents Justinian's retaking of Rome from the Goths in 538 AD, Procopius tells us that Belisarius, Justinian's general, made a truce with the Goths during the seige that was to last until the spring equinox. It turned out that the truce lasted less than that amount of time and by the equinox Belisarius had broken the seige and Rome was reunited with the Eastern Empire. The exact length of the seige is recorded as one year and nine days. So at this point, the ability of the ancient astronomers was still significant.

Last edited by Mark Shipowick; 12/01/06 12:11 PM.
Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Charity] #81970
12/02/06 09:30 AM
12/02/06 09:30 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Not even Nisan 1 after the equinox would have given October 22/23 in 1844. I'm speaking from memory here, but it seems there was a conjunction on March 19, the equinox was on March 20, and Nisan 1 would have been on March 21. But this would have given us September 22/23 for the Day of Atonement, instead of October 22/23.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Rosangela] #81971
12/02/06 11:31 AM
12/02/06 11:31 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Thanks Rosangela. Those are the kinds of issues I'm looking into and the reason this will take some time. I have to educate myself more on astronomy.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Charity] #82015
12/03/06 01:37 PM
12/03/06 01:37 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA

In the Bible, the day begins at sunset rather than at midnight and so we observe the Sabbath according to the definition of the day in Genesis – ‘the evening and the morning were the xth day’ and according to other scriptures that also confirm this reckoning. This is another evidence that there is a divine calendar not dependant on the Mosaic ceremonial law.

For centuries all Jews, Karaites included, have also used this definition of day. But there is a custom with the Karaites that appears to conflict with the Biblical definition of day – that is their reckoning of the New Moon. For Karaites the New Moon is the first visible sliver viewed at evening. The conflict between the Karaites and the biblical reckoning of the day is that the new day has already started when first sliver becomes visible just after sundown. So what the Karaites are doing in effect is to retroactively include those last minutes of the old month before the New Moon appears in the new month.

For the modern Jews who count the new moon from the conjunction the same issue exists but I haven’t looked into how they resolve it. If they say the month begins at the first sundown after the conjunction that would harmonize better with biblical reckoning. If on the other hand they start the new month on the day the conjunction occurs then they have the same problem that the Karaites have – including some of the old month with the new.

The AB calendar avoids this conflict with the following rule:
Quote:

And thus she [the moon] rises. And her first phase in the east comes forth on the thirtieth morning: and on that day she becomes visible, and constitutes for you the first phase of the moon on the thirtieth day together with the sun in the portal where the sun rises. Enoch 73:3 and 4.


I’m studying how this is applied but it seems clear that in the AB calendar the new moon is determined by a dawn viewing rather than dusk, and that the new month is defined as beginning on the evening after the new moon is sighted at dawn on the last day of the old month.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Charity] #82016
12/03/06 01:42 PM
12/03/06 01:42 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
For those who haven't been following the thread, the dawn viewing is only necessary for one or two months every eight years because the AB calendar follows a fixed eight year cycle. More observations would have been made by those following this calendar if they wanted to predict when the new moon would occur at the end of the cycle, but only one or two observations every eight years were apparently required.

Re: Is there a Biblical/Divine calendar? [Re: Charity] #82017
12/03/06 02:01 PM
12/03/06 02:01 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
I came across this material on the internet by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, 260 to 300-311. He talks in http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf06-102.htm of when to celebrate Passover, saying Jews calculated it correctly until the destruction of the temple, then sometimes celebrated it too early. They were using a calculated calendar at this time, not an observed approach. I haven’t analysed this carefully, but the writer makes several good points. I hope to have more comments on the text later.

Quote:
1. Since the mercy of God is everywhere great, let us bless Him, and also because He has sent unto us the Spirit of truth to guide us into all truth. For for this cause the month Abib was appointed by the law to be the beginning of months, and was made known unto us as the first among the months of the year; both by the ancient writers who lived before, and by the later who lived after the destruction of Jerusalem, it was shown to possess a most clear and evidently definite period, especially because in some places the reaping is early, and sometimes it is late, so as to be sometimes before the time and sometimes after it, as it happened in the very beginning of the giving of the law, before the Passover, according as it is written, "But the wheat and the rye were not smitten, for they were not grown up."16 Whence it is rightly prescribed by the law, that from the vernal equinox, in whatsoever week the fourteenth day of the first month shall fall, in it the Passover is to be celebrated, becoming and conformable songs of praise having been first taken up for its celebration. For this first month, says he, "shall be unto you the beginning of months,"17 when the sun in the summer-time sends forth a far stronger and clearer light, and the days are lengthened and become longer, whilst the nights are contracted and shortened. Moreover, when the new seeds have sprung up, they are thoroughly purged, and borne into the threshing floor; nor only this, but also all the shrubs blossom, and burst forth into flower. Immediately therefore they are discovered to send forth in alternation various and diverse fruits, so that the grape-clusters are found at that time; as says the lawgiver, "Now, it was the time of spring, of the first ripe grapes; "18 and when he sent the men to spy out the land, they brought, on bearers, a large cluster of grapes, and pomegranates also, and figs. For then, as they say, our eternal God also, the Maker and Creator of all things, framed all things, and said to them, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself upon the earth" Then he adds, "And it was so; and God saw that it was good."19 Moreover, he makes quite clear that the first month amongst the Hebrews was appointed by law, which we know to have been observed by the Jews up to the destruction of Jerusalem, because this has been so handed down by the Hebrew tradition. But after the destruction of the city it was mocked at by some hardening of heart, which we observing, according to the law, with sincerity have received; and in this, according to the Word, when he speaks of the day of our holy festivity, which the election bath attained: but the rest have become hardened,20 as said the Scripture; and after other things.
2. And He says as follows: "All these things will they do unto you for My name's sake, because they know not Him that sent Me."21 But if they knew not Him who sent, and Him who was sent, there is no reason to doubt but that they have been ignorant of the Passover as prescribed by the law, so as not merely to err in their choice of the place, but also in reckoning the beginning of the month, which is the first amongst the months of the year, on the fourteenth day of which, being accurately observed, after the equinox, the ancients celebrated the Passover according to the divine command; whereas the men of the present day now celebrate it before the equinox, and that altogether through negligence and error, being ignorant how they celebrated it in its season, as He confesses who in these things was described.
3. Whether therefore the Jews erroneously sometimes celebrate their Passover according to the course of the moon in the month Phamenoth, or according to the intercalary month, every third year in the month Pharmuthi22 matters not to us. For we have no other object than to keep the remembrance of His Passion, and that at this very time; as those who were eye-witnesses of it have from the beginning handed down, before the Egyptians believed. For neither by observing the course of the moon do they necessarily celebrate it on the sixteenth day of Phamenoth, but once every three years in the month Pharmuthi; for from the beginning, and before the advent of Christ, they seem to have so done. Hence, when the Lord reproves them by the prophet, He says, "They do always err in their heart; and I have sworn in My wrath that they shall not enter into My rest."23. . . . . .For the ancients seem to have kept it after the vernal equinox, which you can discover if you read ancient books, and those especially which were written by the learned Hebrews.
7. That therefore up to the period of the Lord's Passion, and at the time of the last destruction of Jerusalem, which happened under Vespasian, the Roman emperor, the people of Israel, rightly observing the fourteenth day of the first lunar month, celebrated on it the Passover of the law, has been briefly demonstrated.. . . in the years before His public ministry and during His public ministry, did celebrate the legal and shadowy Passover, eating the typical lamb. For "I came not to destroy the law, or the prophets, but to fulfil them," the Saviour Himself said in the Gospel.
But after His public ministry He did not eat of the lamb,25 but Himself suffered as the true Lamb in the Paschal feast, as John, the divine and evangelist, teaches us in the Gospel written by him, where he thus speaks: "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment-hall, lest they should be defined, but that they might eat the passover."26 And after a few things more. "When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment-seat, in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the third hour,"27 as the correct books render it, and the copy itself that was written by the hand of the evangelist, which, by the divine grace, has been preserved in the most holy church of Ephesus, and is there adored by the faithful. And again the same evangelist says: "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath-day (for that Sabbath-day was an high day), besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."28 On that day, therefore, on which the Jews were about to eat the Passover in the evening, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was crucified, being made the victim to those who were about to partake by faith of the mystery concerning Him, according to what is written by the blessed Paul: "For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us; "29 and not as some who, carried along by ignorance, confidently affirm that after He had eaten the Passover, He was betrayed; which we neither learn from the holy evangelists, nor has any of the blessed apostles handed it down to us. At the time, therefore, in which our Lord and God Jesus Christ suffered for us, according to the flesh, He did not eat of the legal Passover; but, as I have said, He Himself, as the true Lamb, was sacrificed for us in the feast of the typical Passover, on the day of the preparation, the fourteenth of the first lunar month. The typical Passover, therefore, then ceased, the true Passover being present: "For Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us," as has been before said, and as that chosen vessel, the apostle Paul, teaches. Now it was the preparation, about the third hour, as the accurate books have it, and the autograph copy itself of the Evangelist John, which up to this day has by divine grace been preserved in the most holy church of Ephesus, and is there adored by the faithful.

Page 20 of 34 1 2 18 19 20 21 22 33 34

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10?
by dedication. 11/24/24 09:57 PM
No mail in Canada?
by Rick H. 11/22/24 06:45 PM
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 11/21/24 11:03 AM
Fourth quarter, 2024, The Gospel of John
by asygo. 11/20/24 02:31 AM
The 2024 Election, the Hegelian Dialectic
by ProdigalOne. 11/15/24 08:26 PM
"The Lord's Day" and Ignatius
by dedication. 11/15/24 02:19 AM
The Doctrine of the Nicolaitans
by dedication. 11/14/24 04:00 PM
Will Trump be able to lead..
by dedication. 11/13/24 07:13 PM
Is Lying Ever Permitted?
by kland. 11/13/24 05:04 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 11/13/24 04:06 PM
Profiles Of Jesus In Zecharia
by dedication. 11/13/24 02:23 AM
Good and Evil of Higher Critical Bible Study
by dedication. 11/12/24 07:31 PM
The Great White Throne
by dedication. 11/12/24 06:39 PM
A god whom his fathers knew not..
by TruthinTypes. 11/05/24 12:19 AM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by asygo. 11/25/24 03:16 AM
Dr Ben Carson: Church and State
by Rick H. 11/22/24 07:12 PM
Will Trump Pass The Sunday Law?
by dedication. 11/22/24 12:51 PM
Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy
by dedication. 11/22/24 12:35 PM
Private Schools
by Rick H. 11/22/24 07:54 AM
The Church is Suing the State of Maryland
by Rick H. 11/16/24 04:43 PM
Has the Catholic Church Changed?
by TheophilusOne. 11/16/24 08:53 AM
Dr Conrad Vine Banned
by Rick H. 11/15/24 06:11 AM
Understanding the 1290 & 1335 of Daniel 12?
by dedication. 11/05/24 03:16 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1