TE: You seem to be suggesting that our giving up all of our sinful habits is a pre-requisite to being converted. Is that correct? This begs the question as to what a sinful habit is. Masterbation, drinking, smoking. Do these things count? Polygamy?

MM: I’m sorry I haven’t been clearer about it. The following inspired insights can answer your questions better than I can.

SD 300
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

3SM 286
[The] sinful practice of self-abuse … weakens the physical, mental, and moral powers and bars the way to everlasting life. {3SM 286.1}

EV 266
The indulgence of unnatural appetite, whether for tea, coffee, tobacco, or liquor, is intemperance, and is at war with the laws of life and health. By using these forbidden articles a condition of things is created in the system which the Creator never designed. This indulgence in any of the members of the human family is sin. {Ev 265.4}

6T 91, 92
There is need of a more thorough preparation on the part of candidates for baptism. They are in need of more faithful instruction than has usually been given them. The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. {6T 91.4}

CD 268, 269
When the message comes to those who have not heard the truth for this time, they see that a great reformation must take place in their diet. They see that they must put away flesh food, because it creates an appetite for liquor, and fills the system with disease. By meat eating, the physical, mental, and moral powers are weakened. Man is built up from that which he eats. Animal passions bear sway as the result of meat eating, tobacco using, and liquor drinking. {CD 268.4}

6T 96
One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need instruction is the subject of dress. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? Do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases, submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. {6T 96.1}

……………….

TE: This sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote. You seem to be implying that we have no problem in seeing ourselves as we are. Do you agree with this?

MM: The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

………………….

TE: You know I believe that we can fully overcome sin, so I would hardly belittle you for holding to such a view. You seem to believe you have no sinful habits. That would have been a better way of wording it. "What is the end of the story? You didn't have any more sinful habits?" You probably would have agreed to this, and would not have felt offended by my asking you these questions. I apologize for not having put it that way.

MM: "What is the end of the story? You didn't have any more sinful habits?" is better than “So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?” However, neither one accurately reflects what I have written about it. Here is what I believe:

The Holy Spirit reveals to us, during the patient, protracted process of conversion, all of the sinful habits we cultivated since birth. We see them in light of the cross for the first time. If we confess each sinful habit, as it is revealed to us, we advance in the process of conversion. When there are no more sinful habits to confess, we experience the miracle of rebirth.

We are born gain fully aware of all of the sinful habits we cultivated before we were born again. In Christ, we do not act out our former sinful habits. So long as we are abiding in Jesus, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6) “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)

TE: You seem to be suggesting that our giving up all of our sinful habits is a pre-requisite to being converted. Is that correct? This begs the question as to what a sinful habit is. Masterbation, drinking, smoking. Do these things count? Polygamy?

MM: I’m sorry I haven’t been clearer about it. The following inspired insights can answer your questions better than I can.

I don't know what you think the answer to my question is. I'm wanting to know if you think the things I listed are sinful habits. If I had to guess, I would say your answer would be "yes," but I would prefer a straight "yes" if that's how you feel. Also, if you are not comfortable with a straight "yes" answer, I would like you to qualify your answer.

TE: This sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote. You seem to be implying that we have no problem in seeing ourselves as we are. Do you agree with this?

MM: The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

So you agree?

………………….

TE: You know I believe that we can fully overcome sin, so I would hardly belittle you for holding to such a view. You seem to believe you have no sinful habits. That would have been a better way of wording it. "What is the end of the story? You didn't have any more sinful habits?" You probably would have agreed to this, and would not have felt offended by my asking you these questions. I apologize for not having put it that way.

MM: "What is the end of the story? You didn't have any more sinful habits?" is better than “So what's the end of the story? You were truly born again and never sinned again?” However, neither one accurately reflects what I have written about it. Here is what I believe:

The Holy Spirit reveals to us, during the patient, protracted process of conversion, all of the sinful habits we cultivated since birth.

We see them in light of the cross for the first time. If we confess each sinful habit, as it is revealed to us, we advance in the process of conversion. When there are no more sinful habits to confess, we experience the miracle of rebirth.

We are born gain fully aware of all of the sinful habits we cultivated before we were born again. In Christ, we do not act out our former sinful habits. So long as we are abiding in Jesus, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” (1 John 3:6) “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:9)

Ok, thanks for explaining your thought. I'm curious if anyone here agrees with you. I think I'll start a topic on this. It's a bit different than this topic because it gets into how justification by faith works. I think you did a pretty good job here explaining your thoughts. At least, I believe I understand your point of view a bit better than I did.

TE: 1) You seem to be suggesting that our giving up all of our sinful habits is a pre-requisite to being converted. Is that correct? 2) This begs the question as to what a sinful habit is. Masterbation, drinking, smoking. Do these things count? Polygamy?

MM: 1) We must confess them, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. We cannot crucify them until the instant we are born again and begin partaking of the divine nature. In other words, we cannot resist acting them out in thought, word, or deed until we start abiding in Jesus. 2) Yes.

SD 300
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

………………

TE: This sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote. You seem to be implying that we have no problem in seeing ourselves as we are. Do you agree with this?

MM: The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

TE: So you agree?

MM: Yes. The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

……………………..

TE: Ok, thanks for explaining your thought.

MM: You’re welcome. Of course, I didn’t explain sanctification, post-conversion repentance, or dormant, uncultivated, inherited traits and tendencies.

TE: I'm curious if anyone here agrees with you.

MM: As do I.

TE: 1) You seem to be suggesting that our giving up all of our sinful habits is a pre-requisite to being converted. Is that correct? 2) This begs the question as to what a sinful habit is. Masterbation, drinking, smoking. Do these things count? Polygamy?

MM: 1) We must confess them, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. We cannot crucify them until the instant we are born again and begin partaking of the divine nature. In other words, we cannot resist acting them out in thought, word, or deed until we start abiding in Jesus. 2) Yes.

So would I be correct in assuming that from your point of view, no one who smokes or drinks has been converted?

SD 300
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

………………

TE: This sounds like you are disagreeing with what I wrote. You seem to be implying that we have no problem in seeing ourselves as we are. Do you agree with this?

MM: The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

TE: So you agree?

MM: Yes. The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

Are you implying that Paul wasn't converted at the time he wrote 1 Cor. 13:12? Paul was speaking of a future event, being known as we are known, and if 1 Cor. 13:12 applies to being converted, then Paul wasn't converted at the time he wrote this.

Quote.
The only way we can remain free from repeating a former sin is to abide in Jesus. That is the one and only condition for staying free. In Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. It is impossible to commit a known while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Here’s what Jesus, John, and Paul wrote about it:
You also asked - How long would it take for Paul to be freed from his habitual sins? Again, I believe it happened the instant God revealed them to Paul. I do not believe God reveals our sinful habits to us and then we gradually outgrow them over the course of a lifetime of sinning less and less often until we finally cease sinning.
Unquote.

So, why did Paul said he is still the Chief of sinners at the day he wrote the letter to Timothy, which I don’t know how many years after his conversion, but I think it was a long time. So, Paul realized that he still sins till the day he wrote his letter to Timothy, and we don’t know until when he could overcome his habitual sins.

The same John said in 1 John 1:8,10.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. F we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

The bible taught in contrary to what you promote, MM.

We could never reach a perfect sinless life, not a single day. You might think you are sinless and hasn’t committed a sin this day, but that is not true. Sin is a part of your life, God safe you in your sins and he would justify you by your faith whenever you have tried your best to live by the Spirit, no matter the result.

In His love

James S

James,
It is when we lay hold of Jesus CHrist that we are righteous. His character becomes our character, we are to have this moind in you that was in Christ.
We are sinful by nature, and every now and then the old man wants to come back out. THis is where we need to pray and ask GOd for strength, and be delivered.
Therefore submit yourselves to God, resist the devil and he will flee.
There were plenty of sinners in the camp when the Israelites were int he wilderness, but they were all made righteous when they laid hands on the priests. I'll find the verse that descxribes this later on today.
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will

TE: So would I be correct in assuming that from your point of view, no one who smokes or drinks has been converted?

MM: Correct. They may be in the process of converting, but they cannot experience the miracle of true, genuine conversion until they confess and crucify all the sinful habits they cultivated. Here is what Sister White wrote about it:

CD 62, 63
Let none who profess godliness regard with indifference the health of the body, and flatter themselves that intemperance is no sin, and will not affect their spirituality. A close sympathy exists between the physical and the moral nature. The standard of virtue is elevated or degraded by the physical habits. Excessive eating of the best of food will produce a morbid condition of the moral feelings. And if the food is not the most healthful, the effects will be still more injurious. Any habit which does not promote healthful action in the human system, degrades the higher and nobler faculties. Wrong habits of eating and drinking lead to errors in thought and action. Indulgence of appetite strengthens the animal propensities, giving them the ascendancy over the mental and spiritual powers. {CD 62.4}

"Abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul," is the language of the apostle Peter. Many regard this warning as applicable only to the licentious; but it has a broader meaning. It guards against every injurious gratification of appetite or passion. It is a most forcible warning against the use of such stimulants and narcotics as tea, coffee, tobacco, alcohol, and morphine. These indulgences may well be classed among the lusts that exert a pernicious influence upon moral character. The earlier these hurtful habits are formed, the more firmly will they hold their victim in slavery to lust, and the more certainly will they lower the standard of spirituality. {CD 62.5}

……………………..

MM: The Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Spiritual eye-salve enables us to know ourselves even as also we are known. “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

TE: Are you implying that Paul wasn't converted at the time he wrote 1 Cor. 13:12? Paul was speaking of a future event, being known as we are known, and if 1 Cor. 13:12 applies to being converted, then Paul wasn't converted at the time he wrote this.

MM: I wasn’t quoting it in that sense. What I mean is - the Holy Spirit makes us fully aware of our sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the process of conversion. Nothing is left hidden to be revealed later on, after we are born again. Here is how Sister White saw it:

4T 17
True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ. {4T 16.4}

SD 300
The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}

GC 468
The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}

Do you think these insights support what I posted?

JS: The bible taught in contrary to what you promote, MM.

MM: Okay. I'll keep studying. Hopefully you are wrong. Hopefully Jesus can deliver us from sinning.

JS: The bible taught in contrary to what you promote, MM.

MM: Okay. I'll keep studying. Hopefully you are wrong. Hopefully Jesus can deliver us from sinning.

Unquote.

We all keep studying, I may wrong, but till then, I will remain in my position.

We are saved by the grace of God, not by our faith and not by our perfect works thanks to our faith in Christ.

What does saved by grace mean?

According to me:
1. God saved us through the blood of Jesus Christ
2. God saved us through the righteousness of Christ imputed to us
3. God saved us through the righteousness of Christ imparted to us

What is Justification by faith?

According to me:
People who believed in Christ are justified for their faith whenever they have tried their best to live by the Spirit.

Those Israelites who looked up at the bronze serpent uphold by Moses in the wilderness would be healed instantly. Are they justified to continue living because of their faith? I doubt it? Many of them looked up with unbelief, but they too were healed because they followed what was instructed to them, even with unbelief.

Does result matter to be justified? There are many examples in the bible that result is not the point. The point is that God saved us by his grace.

We are asked to belief in Christ, we are asked to live with faith in Him, we are asked to walk after the Spirit, we are asked to keep his commandments, we are asked to love each other, we are asked to be perfect at His coming, we are asked to be holy at His coming, but are these all a state or condition that unless we achieved it we would not enter the gate of heaven? I don’t think so.

There is no guarantee that we could die daily, there is no guarantee that we could live a perfect sinless life, even though the Spirit is working hard in us, but he just cooperate with you whenever you want. It is all depend to us, to our will, to what we want, and what we want is satisfying the flesh, which is natural.

So, I think, if the one saved and get to heaven are only those who are perfect, who are holy, who reached that state and condition of perfect righteous and sinless, then they are all saved by works. Works of faith that saved them!

But the bible said we are saved by grace through faith.

That is clear, grace does save us, faith brought us to Christ to receive his imputed and imparted righteousness in the judgment, which mean, receiving the grace of God that saved us.

In His love

James S

I have not read all the previous commentsa and therefore hope I am not merely repeating thoughts on this most important topic.
EGW makes an amazing statement in COL "When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." {COL 69.1} It seems to me that if we are to have His character we will be perfect, since Jesus was perfect. No doubt we are sinners but Christ has removed our sins as we confess them and thus we stand perfect after confession, however to be perfect as Jesus is means (as I understand) to stop sinning. John 16:8,9 says speaking of the Comforter 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; The important portion being that sin is a lack of belief in Jesus and the sinning is the fruit of it. Romans goes on to say in the last part of the verse "for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin."
In GC we read:
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. If those who hide and excuse their faults could see how Satan exults over them, how he taunts Christ and holy angels with their course, they would make haste to confess their sins and to put them away. Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome. But Jesus pleads in their behalf His wounded hands, His bruised body; and He declares to all who would follow Him: "My grace is sufficient for thee." 2 Corinthians 12:9. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Matthew 11:29, 30. Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them. {GC 489.2}
We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart. The light, frivolous spirit indulged by so many professed Christians must be put away. There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another. Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. {GC 489.3}
This is the true issue that was so much of a problem in 1888 with Jones and Waggoner. The message of perfection is Righteousness by faith. Bible quotes such as "Sin shall not have dominion over you." "Awake to righteousness, and sin not." "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way of escape, that ye may be able to bear it." "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." Romans 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:34; 1 Corinthians 10:13; Jude 24. All bring me to the same point that perfection and an end of sinning must be possible or I am agreeing that satan's power is greter than God's for it is God who will as it says in Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. God's good pleasure is to take us to the place of harmony with Him and that can only be when we are no longer sinning as Christ did..The Lord will perform this work in us. I have a dear friend who for years has struggled with tobacco, quit and start and never getting the victory. It has only been since he came to the place where he fell at Jesus feet, TOTALLY defeated in his own efforts saying to Jesus that it was impossible for him to stop and Jesus would have to do it for him that he has gained the victory. God is well aware of our condition but I believe He can change us totally Ezekiel says 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. This is God's promise to us and before (as I understand) He can return we must allow Him to transform us into the image of Jesus Christ. Colossians says 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
I believe God will do all these but we must choose and the choice is daily. I look forward to other thoughts. May God bless .
terry