The following exchange took place on another thread:



I'd like to invite MM to add any clarifications here, if he would like to, and to invite any comments regarding the idea that Satan's doing something is tantamount to God's doing it, and regarding the idea that God uses Satan as His weapon, with Satan's doing God's bidding.


Tom

Ecc 12:12 And furthermore, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

and

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

Is what I have to say about this.

The inspired insights in this post and the next one make it clear that God is in control. Nothing happens without His command or permission. God takes the credit for whatever He commands or permits. Whether it is holy angels doing what He commands them to do, or evil angles doing whatever He permits them to do - God is responsible, as if He did it Himself.

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

PP 109
The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

3SG 82, 83
The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from Heaven in his wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. {3SG 82.3}

3SG 87, 88
Satan and his angels try to encourage the wicked multitude to action; but fire descends from Heaven, and unites with the fire in the earth, and aids in the general conflagration. {3SG 86.1}

Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}

When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, he will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." {3SG 87.2}

EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

The inspired insights in this post and the next one make it clear that God is in control.

God is in control in the sense that He guides developments in our life, and sustains the universe. He's not in control in the sense of making evil things happen. For example, the hollocaust was not God's doing.

Nothing happens without His command or permission.

Obviously. God is all powerful. How could it?

God takes the credit for whatever He commands or permits.

This is a good observation. The implication of this is just because God is recorded as doing something, it doesn't mean He personally did it. For example, Scripture says:

a.God killed Satan.
b.God caused David to number Israel
c.God sent fiery serpents upons the Israelites
d.God sent armies to destroy Jerusalem (A.D. 70 destruction)


Whether it is holy angels doing what He commands them to do, or evil angles doing whatever He permits them to do - God is responsible, as if He did it Himself.

This is confusing things, very serious, IMO. God graciously takes responsibility for everything that happens; it is His nature to be gracious. However, there is a huge difference between God's actually doing something which Satan does, and God actually doing the things that Satan does.

Discussing this point is the purpose of this topic. For example, God does not rape, nor does He inspire rape. Satan inspires people to rape. God is responsible for this evil, in the sense that He is the Creator, and is All-Powerful, and permitted these things to happen. But God does not rape, not inspire to rape, as Satan does.

TE: God is in control in the sense that He guides developments in our life, and sustains the universe. He's not in control in the sense of making evil things happen. For example, the hollocaust was not God's doing.

MM: The Flood was God’s doing. He commanded holy angels to do it. The same is true of Sodom. And the same will be true in the lake of fire.

………………………

MM: Nothing happens without His command or permission.

TE: Obviously. God is all powerful. How could it?

MM: This applies to God commanding holy angels to punish and destroy sinners. Commanding and permitting yield the same results.

………………

MM: Whether it is holy angels doing what He commands them to do, or evil angles doing whatever He permits them to do - God is responsible, as if He did it Himself.

TE: God is responsible for this evil, in the sense that He is the Creator, and is All-Powerful, and permitted these things to happen. But God does not rape, not inspire to rape, as Satan does.

MM: Neither does Satan rape. God permits evil angels to tempt people to rape, but evil angels cannot make people rape. Someone getting raped depends on whether or not God chooses to intervene.

TE: God is in control in the sense that He guides developments in our life, and sustains the universe. He's not in control in the sense of making evil things happen. For example, the hollocaust was not God's doing.

MM: The Flood was God’s doing. He commanded holy angels to do it. The same is true of Sodom. And the same will be true in the lake of fire.

You seem to like to insist on posting things in inappropriate places, even when this is repeatedly brought to your attention.



………………………

MM: Nothing happens without His command or permission.

TE: Obviously. God is all powerful. How could it?

MM: This applies to God commanding holy angels to punish and destroy sinners. Commanding and permitting yield the same results.

Commanding something be done and permitting it to happen are to entirely different things. Consider, for example, the following statement:



This statement presents a completely different way of looking at things than you do. Note how it contrasts God's work from Satan's. Those who fall for the deceptions of Satan perceive the sufferings mentioned to be the result of a decree, or command, of God. This is how Satan hides his work.

Please notice that God's actions are very different from Satan's. God and Satan do different things. One does good things. The other does evil things.

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MM: Whether it is holy angels doing what He commands them to do, or evil angles doing whatever He permits them to do - God is responsible, as if He did it Himself.

TE: God is responsible for this evil, in the sense that He is the Creator, and is All-Powerful, and permitted these things to happen. But God does not rape, not inspire to rape, as Satan does.

MM: Neither does Satan rape.

I didn't say that he did, did I? Please read carefully.

God permits evil angels to tempt people to rape, but evil angels cannot make people rape. Someone getting raped depends on whether or not God chooses to intervene.

Is it your intent to say that God is responsible for when people get raped?

I think this above is seriously missing the point. Mike, what you are here saying is that becourse God has in the past judged the earth and will again in the future judge it again (this is what the quotes are talking about, nothing more and nothing less), becourse God has done this he is also responsible for every sin and evil and cruel work that has ever happened on this planet. Please explain to me why this is not a damnable heresy and devilish assassination of the character of God?

The bible says

In John 14 we also read that anyone who has seen Jesus has seen God. Anyone who claims to have seen Jesus and then go on to say that it is God who makes evil happen on earth (re the first point in the OP), such a person I think is deluded.

/Thomas

TE: God is in control in the sense that He guides developments in our life, and sustains the universe. He's not in control in the sense of making evil things happen. For example, the hollocaust was not God's doing.

MM: The Flood was God’s doing. He commanded holy angels to do it. The same is true of Sodom. And the same will be true in the lake of fire.

TE: You seem to like to insist on posting things in inappropriate places, even when this is repeatedly brought to your attention.

MM: In what way do you, Tom, think the holocaust is different than the flood and fire that destroyed the antediluvians and the Sodomites? In what way do you think the holocaust is different than the destruction of Jews in AD 70?

……………………

MM: This applies to God commanding holy angels to punish and destroy sinners. Commanding and permitting yield the same results.

TE: Commanding something be done and permitting it to happen are to entirely different things. Consider, for example, the following statement … This statement presents a completely different way of looking at things than you do. Note how it contrasts God's work from Satan's. Those who fall for the deceptions of Satan perceive the sufferings mentioned to be the result of a decree, or command, of God. This is how Satan hides his work. Please notice that God's actions are very different from Satan's. God and Satan do different things. One does good things. The other does evil things.

MM: The “results” are the same, right? That is, sinners suffer and die. What about all those times God commanded holy angels to punish and destroy sinners? Did people assume Satan was to blame? Also, how do you think it works when God permits evil angels to destroy sinners? Do you think evil angels start to do something destructive and then God intervenes to ensure a desirable outcome? Or, as in the case of Job, does God manage things from the very beginning?

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

What does she mean by – “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Do holy and evil angels use the same destructive power to destroy sinners?

…………………

MM: Neither does Satan rape.

TE: I didn't say that he did, did I? Please read carefully.

MM: I didn’t say you said Satan rapes. It was a simple observation.

………………………

MM: God permits evil angels to tempt people to rape, but evil angels cannot make people rape. Someone getting raped depends on whether or not God chooses to intervene.

TE: Is it your intent to say that God is responsible for when people get raped?

MM: God can prevent FMAs from doing evil things – without violating their freedom to choose. In the case of Job, God permitted evil angels to do things within the limits God prescribed. Evil angels were not allowed to exceed the boundaries set up by God. God is responsible for all the death and destruction caused by the evil angels. He is also responsible for all the death and destruction that the evil angels were not allowed to cause. Applying these same principles to cases involving rape, we can logically conclude that whether or not someone is raped depends on what God allows or disallows.

TV: Mike, what you are here saying is that becourse God has in the past judged the earth and will again in the future judge it again (this is what the quotes are talking about, nothing more and nothing less), becourse God has done this he is also responsible for every sin and evil and cruel work that has ever happened on this planet. Please explain to me why this is not a damnable heresy and devilish assassination of the character of God?

MM: Thomas, do you agree with Sister White that God commands holy angels to punish and destroy sinners? If so, what does this tell us about the character of God? In what way do you believe God is responsible for the things that happen on this planet?

I believe God is in control. Nothing happens without God commanding it or permitting it. Whether God commands holy angels to punish and destroy sinners or permits evil angels to cause destruction, He is responsible for it as if He did it Himself. The reason this truth does not demonize God is because He is in control – not Satan.

Think about it. If all the death and destruction that happens on this planet is unregulated, out of God’s control, then who is in charge – Satan? Me? You? If God is not in control, not in charge of making sure things do not get out of control, what does that tell us about God? It would demonize God, in my mind, if I believed He is not in control, that He is leaving it up to Satan to run the show.

TV: Anyone who claims to have seen Jesus and then go on to say that it is God who makes evil happen on earth (re the first point in the OP), such a person I think is deluded.

MM: Do you believe God made the Flood happen? Do you believe God made Sodom burn up? If so, does that mean you are deluded? Do you believe Sister White attributes these two events to God? If so, do you think she was deluded?

PS – None of my questions to you in this post are rhetorical. Please take the time to address them. Thank you.