MM, the point regarding Jesus' prayer was to demonstrate that God's will is not being done on earth. If it were, Jesus' instruction would not make sense. The fact that God's will is not being done on earth shows that not everything that happens is God's will.

That was the premise of the original post. That whatever evil and sinfull happens on earth, God is ultimately guilty. True that it doesnt fully agree with your later focus on Gods judgement but that is what I understood this thread to be dealing with.

/Thomas

TE: MM, the point regarding Jesus' prayer was to demonstrate that God's will is not being done on earth. If it were, Jesus' instruction would not make sense. The fact that God's will is not being done on earth shows that not everything that happens is God's will.

MM: True, sinning it is not God’s will. But that’s the only thing He will not control, that is, He will not violate our freedom to choose to sin. However, He can, and does, manage the outcome of our choices. For example, if someone points a pistol at me and pulls the trigger, whether or not I die is up to God – not fate! God is not hostage to our choices. He is free to manipulate the outcome to serve His will.

...................

TV: True that it doesnt fully agree with your later focus on Gods judgement but that is what I understood this thread to be dealing with.

MM: So, are we in agreement?

DF: What God permits isn't necessarily God's will. Is it God's will that anybody perish in their sins? The fact is that multitudes are perishing in their sins.

MM: True. God will not force us to be saved or lost. The choice is ours. But whether or not God commands holy angels or permits evil angels to destroy sinners is based on His will. It does not violate our will.

TE: You seem to be contrasting the principles involved when we, as human beings, choose to do something evil, as opposed to if angels do. You say for us, "the choice is ours," but if God permits evil angels to do bad things, that is based on His will. The "but" indicates that you're making a distinction. We can choose to act contrary to God's will, but angels can't.

MM: I was responding to – “What God permits isn't necessarily God's will.” It is God’s will when He permits evil angels to destroy sinners. Of course evil angels can choose to pass up an opportunity to destroy sinners, but it is unlikely they ever have or ever will. The same is true when God commands holy angels to destroy sinners. They have a choice to disobey God, but they never have, nor ever will.

You're saying the same thing I said you were. When human beings choose to do something God permits (you mentioned specifically sin), that's not God's will, but when an angel chooses to do something God permits (destroy humans), it is. Why should this be different for angels? That is, why does the sin of humans not reflect God's will, but the sin of angels does?

TE: That is, why does the sin of humans not reflect God's will, but the sin of angels does?

MM: Are evil angels guilty of sinning when God permits them to destroy sinners? I don't think so. What would God do to fulfill His will if evil angels refused to destroy sinners? He would probably command holy angels do it. Are holy angels guilty of sinning when God commands them to destroy sinners? I don't think so.

MM: The “results” are the same, right? That is, sinners suffer and die. What about all those times God commanded holy angels to punish and destroy sinners? Did people assume Satan was to blame?

TE: Whether they knew it or not, Satan was to blame. Satan is to blame for all evil.

MM: Satan is to blame when God commands holy angels to destroy sinners? How do you figure?

Satan is to blame for sin and all its results.

…………………

MM: Also, how do you think it works when God permits evil angels to destroy sinners? Do you think evil angels start to do something destructive and then God intervenes to ensure a desirable outcome? Or, as in the case of Job, does God manage things from the very beginning?

TE: I'm not understanding the point of your questions.

MM: What do you think “God permits evil angels to destroy sinners” means? How does it work? Does He reign in Satan so that what he accomplishes doesn’t exceed certain limits? Or, what?

I'm still not understanding your point. Maybe Job answers your question, where God set a hedge, and when the hedge was removed, Satan went to work.

…………..

MM: What does she mean by – “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Do holy and evil angels use the same destructive power to destroy sinners?

TE: They use the same power, but it is used in different ways. How does this relate to the point of the topic, which is whether or not God or Satan does something makes a difference?

MM: The point is - God commanding holy angels or permitting evil angels to destroy sinners yields identical results. Either way, the outcome serves to fulfill God’s will. It is the same as if God did it Himself. He wouldn’t command holy angels or permit evil angels to do anything against His will, right? He’s not a mob boss telling His cronies to do His dirty work.

The whole question of the thread is if God's permitting an evil angel to do something is as if God did it Himself. It is totally different. For example, God's allowing Adam and Eve to be tempted by Satan was not the same thing as God tempting them Himself. We know that God does not tempt from James.

………………….

MM: Neither does Satan rape.

TE: I didn't say that he did, did I? Please read carefully.

MM: I didn’t say you said Satan rapes. It was a simple observation.

TE: Topeka is the capital of Kansas. Belize only has about 3% arable land.

MM: How does this information relate to the discussion?

You were making simple observations not based on what I wrote, so I made a couple as well, not based on what you wrote.

…………………

TE: The question of the topic has to do with God's using Satan as His weapon, to do His will. When someone gets rapes, is that God's will? (not His permissive will, but His active will; is it something He is glad that happened?)

MM: Is God “glad” Jesus’ death on the cross saves millions? Yes, of course He is. Is God “glad” that the blood of martyrs motivates others to embrace Jesus? Yes, of course He is. Is God “glad” when rape serves to cause victims to give their hearts to Jesus? Yes, of course He is. Trials and trouble are a means to an end. The end justifies the means.

Hmm. Seems we had a thread about this. Marx was right after all.

God is not glad things are the way they are, that is, that circumstances force Him to allow trials to befall us that we might grow and mature in the fruits of Spirit.

Is God dependent upon evil for us to grow and mature?

MH 488, 489
The Father's presence encircled Christ, and nothing befell Him but that which infinite love permitted for the blessing of the world. Here was His source of comfort, and it is for us. He who is imbued with the Spirit of Christ abides in Christ. Whatever comes to him comes from the Saviour, who surrounds him with His presence. Nothing can touch him except by the Lord's permission. All our sufferings and sorrows, all our temptations and trials, all our sadness and griefs, all our persecutions and privations, in short, all things work together for our good. All experiences and circumstances are God's workmen whereby good is brought to us. {MH 488.4}

6BC 1099
If Paul, troubled on every side, perplexed, persecuted, could call his trials light afflictions, of what has the Christian of today to complain? How trifling are our trials in comparison with Paul's many afflictions! They are not worthy to be compared with the eternal weight of glory awaiting the overcomer. They are God's workmen, ordained for the perfection of character. However great the deprivation and suffering of the Christian, however dark and inscrutable may seem the way of Providence, he is to rejoice in the Lord, knowing that all is working for his good (RH May 6, 1902). {6BC 1099.6}

MM: Satan is to blame when God commands holy angels to destroy sinners? How do you figure?

TE: Satan is to blame for sin and all its results.

MM: Please explain. Do you mean he is to blame for the fact circumstances exist that force God to command holy angels to destroy sinners?

…………….

MM: What do you think “God permits evil angels to destroy sinners” means? How does it work? Does He reign in Satan so that what he accomplishes doesn’t exceed certain limits? Or, what?

TE: I'm still not understanding your point. Maybe Job answers your question, where God set a hedge, and when the hedge was removed, Satan went to work.

MM: I’m not making a point. I’m asking you to explain what you think it means. What does the word “permit” mean to you? What does it imply? Does Satan pester God until He permits him to cause death and destruction? Or, does God choose to permit Satan to do it when sinners reach the limits of God’s forbearance, when they fill up their cup of woe and wrath? Who initiates it? Who answers to who?

GC 627, 628
The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. … The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. {GC 627.2, 3}

4BC 1143, 1144
The Lord God will soon arise in His wrath, and pour out His judgments upon those who are repeating the sins of the inhabitants of the Noachic world. Those whose hearts are fully set in them to do evil, as were the hearts of the inhabitants of Sodom, will like them be destroyed. The fact that God had long forbearance, patience and mercy, the fact that His judgments have been long delayed, will not make the punishment any less severe when it does come (Undated MS 145). {4BC 1143.7}

……………..

MM: The point is - God commanding holy angels or permitting evil angels to destroy sinners yields identical results. Either way, the outcome serves to fulfill God’s will. It is the same as if God did it Himself. He wouldn’t command holy angels or permit evil angels to do anything against His will, right? He’s not a mob boss telling His cronies to do His dirty work.

TE: The whole question of the thread is if God's permitting an evil angel to do something is as if God did it Himself. It is totally different. For example, God's allowing Adam and Eve to be tempted by Satan was not the same thing as God tempting them Himself. We know that God does not tempt from James.

MM: I agree. God does not tempt us to sin. But that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the results of God commanding holy angels to destroy sinners. I believe the results, namely, that sinners die, are identical whether holy angels fulfill God’s will or evil angels are permitted to do it. Do you agree?

…………………….

MM: Is God “glad” Jesus’ death on the cross saves millions? Yes, of course He is. Is God “glad” that the blood of martyrs motivates others to embrace Jesus? Yes, of course He is. Is God “glad” when rape serves to cause victims to give their hearts to Jesus? Yes, of course He is. Trials and trouble are a means to an end. The end justifies the means. God is not glad things are the way they are, that is, that circumstances force Him to allow trials to befall us that we might grow and mature in the fruits of Spirit.

TE: Hmm. Seems we had a thread about this. Marx was right after all. Is God dependent upon evil for us to grow and mature?

MM: No, God is not “dependent” upon evil for us to grow and mature. God does, however, employ trials and trouble to grow us as believers. They are His workmen. Do you think I have misunderstood the points made in the following quotes?

MH 488, 489
The Father's presence encircled Christ, and nothing befell Him but that which infinite love permitted for the blessing of the world. Here was His source of comfort, and it is for us. He who is imbued with the Spirit of Christ abides in Christ. Whatever comes to him comes from the Saviour, who surrounds him with His presence. Nothing can touch him except by the Lord's permission. All our sufferings and sorrows, all our temptations and trials, all our sadness and griefs, all our persecutions and privations, in short, all things work together for our good. All experiences and circumstances are God's workmen whereby good is brought to us. {MH 488.4}

6BC 1099
If Paul, troubled on every side, perplexed, persecuted, could call his trials light afflictions, of what has the Christian of today to complain? How trifling are our trials in comparison with Paul's many afflictions! They are not worthy to be compared with the eternal weight of glory awaiting the overcomer. They are God's workmen, ordained for the perfection of character. However great the deprivation and suffering of the Christian, however dark and inscrutable may seem the way of Providence, he is to rejoice in the Lord, knowing that all is working for his good (RH May 6, 1902). {6BC 1099.6}

…………………..

TE: That is, why does the sin of humans not reflect God's will, but the sin of angels does?

MM: Are evil angels guilty of sinning when God permits them to destroy sinners? I don't think so. What would God do to fulfill His will if evil angels refused to destroy sinners? He would probably command holy angels do it. Are holy angels guilty of sinning when God commands them to destroy sinners? I don't think so.

MM: Satan is to blame when God commands holy angels to destroy sinners? How do you figure?

TE: Satan is to blame for sin and all its results.

MM: Please explain. Do you mean he is to blame for the fact circumstances exist that force God to command holy angels to destroy sinners?

I mean that Satan is to blame for sin, and all the results which come from sin, such as pain, suffering, misery, death and so forth. As EGW put it, "Christ did not plant the seed of death in the system...An enemy has done this."

…………….

MM: What do you think “God permits evil angels to destroy sinners” means? How does it work? Does He reign in Satan so that what he accomplishes doesn’t exceed certain limits? Or, what?

TE: I'm still not understanding your point. Maybe Job answers your question, where God set a hedge, and when the hedge was removed, Satan went to work.

MM: I’m not making a point. I’m asking you to explain what you think it means. What does the word “permit” mean to you? What does it imply? Does Satan pester God until He permits him to cause death and destruction? Or, does God choose to permit Satan to do it when sinners reach the limits of God’s forbearance, when they fill up their cup of woe and wrath? Who initiates it? Who answers to who?

GC 627, 628
The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. … The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. {GC 627.2, 3}

4BC 1143, 1144
The Lord God will soon arise in His wrath, and pour out His judgments upon those who are repeating the sins of the inhabitants of the Noachic world. Those whose hearts are fully set in them to do evil, as were the hearts of the inhabitants of Sodom, will like them be destroyed. The fact that God had long forbearance, patience and mercy, the fact that His judgments have been long delayed, will not make the punishment any less severe when it does come (Undated MS 145). {4BC 1143.7}

You seem to be wanting to make some point, because you quoted a couple of references. Perhaps if you stated your point, I could comment. Your questions all seem to be rhetorical.

……………..

MM: The point is - God commanding holy angels or permitting evil angels to destroy sinners yields identical results. Either way, the outcome serves to fulfill God’s will. It is the same as if God did it Himself. He wouldn’t command holy angels or permit evil angels to do anything against His will, right? He’s not a mob boss telling His cronies to do His dirty work.

TE: The whole question of the thread is if God's permitting an evil angel to do something is as if God did it Himself. It is totally different. For example, God's allowing Adam and Eve to be tempted by Satan was not the same thing as God tempting them Himself. We know that God does not tempt from James.

MM: I agree. God does not tempt us to sin. But that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the results of God commanding holy angels to destroy sinners. I believe the results, namely, that sinners die, are identical whether holy angels fulfill God’s will or evil angels are permitted to do it. Do you agree?

The point of the topic is to discuss a principle. The principle is whether God's permitting something to happen is the same as Him doing the thing He permits Himself. I asked, "you wish to make the point the because Satan cannot do whatever he feels like, that's really tantamount to God doing whatever Satan does?" to which you responded "yes." You seem now to be saying something different, along the lines of "no, unless destruction is involved" or "yes, unless temptation is involved," since you are agreeing with my point about temptation.

Because God is all-powerful, He could prevent anything from happening if He chose, but because He created us with the capacity to love and to be loved, He cannot do that without impinging upon free will, so He allows many things to happen which are not His will. Jesus made this clear throughout His life. For example, He never ascribed any sickness or unfortunate event as the will of God, but He worked to heal, to restore. He taught us to pray that God's will be done on earth, making clear the obvious, which is that God's will is no done on earth.

In Christ we see a God who cares deeply, sympathizing with our weakness, weeping when we weep, rejoicing when we rejoice, seeking to teach us principles which will lead to eternal life, which are the principles of self-sacrificing love.

…………………….

MM: Is God “glad” Jesus’ death on the cross saves millions? Yes, of course He is. Is God “glad” that the blood of martyrs motivates others to embrace Jesus? Yes, of course He is. Is God “glad” when rape serves to cause victims to give their hearts to Jesus? Yes, of course He is. Trials and trouble are a means to an end. The end justifies the means. God is not glad things are the way they are, that is, that circumstances force Him to allow trials to befall us that we might grow and mature in the fruits of Spirit.

TE: Hmm. Seems we had a thread about this. Marx was right after all. Is God dependent upon evil for us to grow and mature?

MM: No, God is not “dependent” upon evil for us to grow and mature. God does, however, employ trials and trouble to grow us as believers. They are His workmen. Do you think I have misunderstood the points made in the following quotes?

Yes. I think you are looking at things in a completely different way than how Christ did. Your way of looking at things, from how it appears to me, is that God is responsible for the evil which happens in the world, that the things which Satan does are as if God did them, that Satan is doing God's will. I see Christ as teaching the exact opposite of this, which is that God is fighting against the things Satan does, and that God hates the evil which Satan does, that evil is never His will.

MH 488, 489
The Father's presence encircled Christ, and nothing befell Him but that which infinite love permitted for the blessing of the world. Here was His source of comfort, and it is for us. He who is imbued with the Spirit of Christ abides in Christ. Whatever comes to him comes from the Saviour, who surrounds him with His presence. Nothing can touch him except by the Lord's permission. All our sufferings and sorrows, all our temptations and trials, all our sadness and griefs, all our persecutions and privations, in short, all things work together for our good. All experiences and circumstances are God's workmen whereby good is brought to us. {MH 488.4}

6BC 1099
If Paul, troubled on every side, perplexed, persecuted, could call his trials light afflictions, of what has the Christian of today to complain? How trifling are our trials in comparison with Paul's many afflictions! They are not worthy to be compared with the eternal weight of glory awaiting the overcomer. They are God's workmen, ordained for the perfection of character. However great the deprivation and suffering of the Christian, however dark and inscrutable may seem the way of Providence, he is to rejoice in the Lord, knowing that all is working for his good (RH May 6, 1902). {6BC 1099.6}

…………………..

TE: That is, why does the sin of humans not reflect God's will, but the sin of angels does?

MM: Are evil angels guilty of sinning when God permits them to destroy sinners?

Of course. What a question. They are guilty of sinning when God permits them to lie and they lie. They are guilty of blasphemy when God permits them to blaspheme and they blaspheme.

If one were innocent of wrong doing because God permitted it, then there would be no such thing as sin at all. One could reason, "God permitted me to do this thing. Therefore it is His will. Therefore it is not sin." using the same exact logic you are using.

I don't think so. What would God do to fulfill His will if evil angels refused to destroy sinners?

It's not His will to destroy sinners! Christ made this point crystal clear: