God has in history punished and destroyed sinners, as we can read in the scriptures. God punishing the sinner is way different from God causing the man to sin first and then punishing him for the sin. Even humans know that it is not fair for the police to punish someone for a crime that they would not have commited without incitement from the police. In Sweden the law says such. Is the law of humans more just than God?
Gods claim to responsibility for human wickedness is Jesus dying on the cross bringing all sin with him upon the cursed tree.Mike, your view does not allow for free will. Humans and angles ability to choose for or against God. As if God caused Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of sin so he could punish humanity it...And are you by this stating that things are in controll? In such case, I for one am not all to impressed with this controll. I think that one of earths problems is exactly the lack of controll (and in everyone scrambling over bodies to gain it). It seems from the bible that what God is doing is just keeping us from exterminating our own race. The question is rather, do you believe God made Cain kill Abel? Do you believe God made the male population of Sodom want to rape the two angle messengers? I do not, and as Cain had introduced murder on the scene, God was judging the peoples own choises. God was also judging the sodomites desire to rape him. Thomas

TE: God is in control in the sense that He guides developments in our life, and sustains the universe. He's not in control in the sense of making evil things happen. For example, the hollocaust was not God's doing.

MM: The Flood was God’s doing. He commanded holy angels to do it. The same is true of Sodom. And the same will be true in the lake of fire.

TE: You seem to like to insist on posting things in inappropriate places, even when this is repeatedly brought to your attention.

MM: In what way do you, Tom, think the holocaust is different than the flood and fire that destroyed the antediluvians and the Sodomites? In what way do you think the holocaust is different than the destruction of Jews in AD 70?

You do ask some good questions! I'm going to open a topic to discuss this.

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MM: This applies to God commanding holy angels to punish and destroy sinners. Commanding and permitting yield the same results.

TE: Commanding something be done and permitting it to happen are to entirely different things. Consider, for example, the following statement … This statement presents a completely different way of looking at things than you do. Note how it contrasts God's work from Satan's. Those who fall for the deceptions of Satan perceive the sufferings mentioned to be the result of a decree, or command, of God. This is how Satan hides his work. Please notice that God's actions are very different from Satan's. God and Satan do different things. One does good things. The other does evil things.

MM: The “results” are the same, right? That is, sinners suffer and die. What about all those times God commanded holy angels to punish and destroy sinners? Did people assume Satan was to blame?

Whether they knew it or not, Satan was to blame. Satan is to blame for all evil.

Also, how do you think it works when God permits evil angels to destroy sinners? Do you think evil angels start to do something destructive and then God intervenes to ensure a desirable outcome? Or, as in the case of Job, does God manage things from the very beginning?

I'm not understanding the point of your questions.

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

What does she mean by – “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Do holy and evil angels use the same destructive power to destroy sinners?

They use the same power, but it is used in different ways. How does this relate to the point of the topic, which is whether or not God or Satan does something makes a difference?

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MM: Neither does Satan rape.

TE: I didn't say that he did, did I? Please read carefully.

MM: I didn’t say you said Satan rapes. It was a simple observation.

Topeka is the capital of Kansas. Belize only has about 3% arable land.

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MM: God permits evil angels to tempt people to rape, but evil angels cannot make people rape. Someone getting raped depends on whether or not God chooses to intervene.

TE: Is it your intent to say that God is responsible for when people get raped?

MM: God can prevent FMAs from doing evil things – without violating their freedom to choose. In the case of Job, God permitted evil angels to do things within the limits God prescribed. Evil angels were not allowed to exceed the boundaries set up by God. God is responsible for all the death and destruction caused by the evil angels. He is also responsible for all the death and destruction that the evil angels were not allowed to cause. Applying these same principles to cases involving rape, we can logically conclude that whether or not someone is raped depends on what God allows or disallows.

No one disputes that nothing can happen except that God permits it. There's no need to discuss this. The question of the topic has to do with God's using Satan as His weapon, to do His will. When someone gets rapes, is that God's will? (not His permissive will, but His active will; is it something He is glad that happened?)

We have the same law in the U.S., which is referred to as "entrapment."



That's right!

A simple point that comes to mind is that Jesus has instructed us to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If God's will were already being done on earth, this instruction wouldn't make much sense.

I think you should focus on what God's will is in relation to all of this.

What God permits isn't necessarily God's will.

Is it God's will that anybody perish in their sins? The fact is that multitudes are perishing in their sins.

TV: God punishing the sinner is way different from God causing the man to sin first and then punishing him for the sin.

MM: True. God never forced anyone to sin so that He cold punish and destroy them. Hopefully no one is suggesting otherwise on this forum.

TV: Gods claim to responsibility for human wickedness is Jesus dying on the cross bringing all sin with him upon the cursed tree.

MM: True. Jesus earned the right, on the cross, to own our sin and second death. In the end, Satan will die in the lake of fire with our sin and second death.

TV: Mike, your view does not allow for free will. Humans and angles ability to choose for or against God. As if God caused Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of sin so he could punish humanity it...

MM: In what way does commanding holy angels to destroy sinners or permitting evil angels to do it imply that God is violating freedom of choice? Or, forcing someone to sin so He can destroy them? You yourself wrote – “God has in history punished and destroyed sinners, as we can read in the scriptures.”

TV: And are you by this stating that things are in controll? In such case, I for one am not all to impressed with this controll. I think that one of earths problems is exactly the lack of controll (and in everyone scrambling over bodies to gain it). It seems from the bible that what God is doing is just keeping us from exterminating our own race.

MM: Please consider the following inspired insight:

GC 36
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. … The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. {GC 36.1}

TV: The question is rather, do you believe God made Cain kill Abel? Do you believe God made the male population of Sodom want to rape the two angle messengers? I do not, and as Cain had introduced murder on the scene, God was judging the peoples own choises. God was also judging the sodomites desire to rape him.

MM: I agree. God did not force Cain to kill his brother. Nor did He make the Sodomites want to rape anyone. Did I post anything that led you think I believe God is guilty of forcing people to sin?

MM: The “results” are the same, right? That is, sinners suffer and die. What about all those times God commanded holy angels to punish and destroy sinners? Did people assume Satan was to blame?

TE: Whether they knew it or not, Satan was to blame. Satan is to blame for all evil.

MM: Satan is to blame when God commands holy angels to destroy sinners? How do you figure?

…………………

MM: Also, how do you think it works when God permits evil angels to destroy sinners? Do you think evil angels start to do something destructive and then God intervenes to ensure a desirable outcome? Or, as in the case of Job, does God manage things from the very beginning?

TE: I'm not understanding the point of your questions.

MM: What do you think “God permits evil angels to destroy sinners” means? How does it work? Does He reign in Satan so that what he accomplishes doesn’t exceed certain limits? Or, what?

…………..

MM: What does she mean by – “The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.” Do holy and evil angels use the same destructive power to destroy sinners?

TE: They use the same power, but it is used in different ways. How does this relate to the point of the topic, which is whether or not God or Satan does something makes a difference?

MM: The point is - God commanding holy angels or permitting evil angels to destroy sinners yields identical results. Either way, the outcome serves to fulfill God’s will. It is the same as if God did it Himself. He wouldn’t command holy angels or permit evil angels to do anything against His will, right? He’s not a mob boss telling His cronies to do His dirty work.

………………….

MM: Neither does Satan rape.

TE: I didn't say that he did, did I? Please read carefully.

MM: I didn’t say you said Satan rapes. It was a simple observation.

TE: Topeka is the capital of Kansas. Belize only has about 3% arable land.

MM: How does this information relate to the discussion?

…………………

TE: The question of the topic has to do with God's using Satan as His weapon, to do His will. When someone gets rapes, is that God's will? (not His permissive will, but His active will; is it something He is glad that happened?)

MM: Is God “glad” Jesus’ death on the cross saves millions? Yes, of course He is. Is God “glad” that the blood of martyrs motivates others to embrace Jesus? Yes, of course He is. Is God “glad” when rape serves to cause victims to give their hearts to Jesus? Yes, of course He is. Trials and trouble are a means to an end. The end justifies the means. God is not glad things are the way they are, that is, that circumstances force Him to allow trials to befall us that we might grow and mature in the fruits of Spirit.

MH 488, 489
The Father's presence encircled Christ, and nothing befell Him but that which infinite love permitted for the blessing of the world. Here was His source of comfort, and it is for us. He who is imbued with the Spirit of Christ abides in Christ. Whatever comes to him comes from the Saviour, who surrounds him with His presence. Nothing can touch him except by the Lord's permission. All our sufferings and sorrows, all our temptations and trials, all our sadness and griefs, all our persecutions and privations, in short, all things work together for our good. All experiences and circumstances are God's workmen whereby good is brought to us. {MH 488.4}

6BC 1099
If Paul, troubled on every side, perplexed, persecuted, could call his trials light afflictions, of what has the Christian of today to complain? How trifling are our trials in comparison with Paul's many afflictions! They are not worthy to be compared with the eternal weight of glory awaiting the overcomer. They are God's workmen, ordained for the perfection of character. However great the deprivation and suffering of the Christian, however dark and inscrutable may seem the way of Providence, he is to rejoice in the Lord, knowing that all is working for his good (RH May 6, 1902). {6BC 1099.6}

DF: What God permits isn't necessarily God's will. Is it God's will that anybody perish in their sins? The fact is that multitudes are perishing in their sins.

MM: True. God will not force us to be saved or lost. The choice is ours. But whether or not God commands holy angels or permits evil angels to destroy sinners is based on His will. It does not violate our will. Is this how you see it?

TE: A simple point that comes to mind is that Jesus has instructed us to pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If God's will were already being done on earth, this instruction wouldn't make much sense.

MM: Jesus taught us to pray according to God’s will. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus Himself prayed, “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” (Mat. 26:39) Praying “thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” is a wish, a desire for earth to be like heaven. It is not a command. Jesus is not telling us to beg or command God to do something He isn’t already doing.

MB 110
The petition, "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven," is a prayer that the reign of evil on this earth may be ended, that sin may be forever destroyed, and the kingdom of righteousness be established. Then in earth as in heaven will be fulfilled "all the good pleasure of His goodness." 2 Thessalonians 1:11. {MB 110.1}

6BC 1102
Those who seek to answer the prayer, "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven," will seek by living pure, sanctified lives to show to the world how the will of God is done in heaven (MS 11, 1901). {6BC 1102.4}

6T 438
Men may pray, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven;" but if they fail of acting out this prayer in their lives, their petitions will be fruitless. {6T 437.4}

8T 35
We repeat the prayer: "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10. Are we doing our part to answer this prayer? We profess to believe that the commission which Christ gave to His disciples is given also to us. Are we fulfilling it? {8T 35.2}

RC 204
Christ has taught us to pray, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." This opens before us the height to which we are to attain by steady progress and continual advancement. As members of the church of Christ, we are to do His will on earth. {RC 204.5}

You seem to be contrasting the principles involved when we, as human beings, choose to do something evil, as opposed to if angels do. You say for us, "the choice is ours," but if God permits evil angels to do bad things, that is based on His will. The "but" indicates that you're making a distinction. We can choose to act contrary to God's will, but angels can't.