MM: Satan is to blame when God commands holy angels to destroy sinners? How do you figure?

TE: Satan is to blame for sin and all its results.

MM: What is sinful about God commanding holy angels to destroy sinners? How can we blame Satan for something God commanded holy angels to do?

…………………….

MM: No, God is not “dependent” upon evil for us to grow and mature. God does, however, employ trials and trouble to grow us as believers. They are His workmen. Do you think I have misunderstood the points made in the following quotes?

TE: Yes. I think you are looking at things in a completely different way than how Christ did. Your way of looking at things, from how it appears to me, is that God is responsible for the evil which happens in the world, that the things which Satan does are as if God did them, that Satan is doing God's will. I see Christ as teaching the exact opposite of this, which is that God is fighting against the things Satan does, and that God hates the evil which Satan does, that evil is never His will.

MM: Do you disagree that the quotes I posted teach us that God uses trials and trouble to grow us as Christians? Here is another quote:

AG 89
The trials to which Christians are subjected in sorrow, adversity, and reproach are the means appointed of God to separate the chaff from the wheat. Our pride, selfishness, evil passions, and love of worldly pleasure must all be overcome; therefore God sends us afflictions to test and prove us, and show us that these evils exist in our characters. {AG 89.2}

……………………….

MM: Are evil angels guilty of sinning when God permits them to destroy sinners? I don't think so. What would God do to fulfill His will if evil angels refused to destroy sinners? He would probably command holy angels do it. Are holy angels guilty of sinning when God commands them to destroy sinners? I don't think so.

TE: Of course. What a question. They are guilty of sinning when God permits them to lie and they lie. They are guilty of blasphemy when God permits them to blaspheme and they blaspheme. If one were innocent of wrong doing because God permitted it, then there would be no such thing as sin at all. One could reason, "God permitted me to do this thing. Therefore it is His will. Therefore it is not sin." using the same exact logic you are using.

MM: Tom, please answer the rest of the questions – “He would probably command holy angels do it. Are holy angels guilty of sinning when God commands them to destroy sinners? I don't think so.”

MM: Satan is to blame when God commands holy angels to destroy sinners? How do you figure?

TE: Satan is to blame for sin and all its results.

MM: What is sinful about God commanding holy angels to destroy sinners? How can we blame Satan for something God commanded holy angels to do?

Satan is to blame for sin and all its results. I think that's a direct quote from the Spirit of Prophecy. If not, it's close.

…………………….

MM: No, God is not “dependent” upon evil for us to grow and mature. God does, however, employ trials and trouble to grow us as believers. They are His workmen. Do you think I have misunderstood the points made in the following quotes?

TE: Yes. I think you are looking at things in a completely different way than how Christ did. Your way of looking at things, from how it appears to me, is that God is responsible for the evil which happens in the world, that the things which Satan does are as if God did them, that Satan is doing God's will. I see Christ as teaching the exact opposite of this, which is that God is fighting against the things Satan does, and that God hates the evil which Satan does, that evil is never His will.

MM: Do you disagree that the quotes I posted teach us that God uses trials and trouble to grow us as Christians?

No, just with your interpretation of the quotes.

Here is another quote:

AG 89
The trials to which Christians are subjected in sorrow, adversity, and reproach are the means appointed of God to separate the chaff from the wheat. Our pride, selfishness, evil passions, and love of worldly pleasure must all be overcome; therefore God sends us afflictions to test and prove us, and show us that these evils exist in our characters. {AG 89.2}

……………………….

MM: Are evil angels guilty of sinning when God permits them to destroy sinners? I don't think so. What would God do to fulfill His will if evil angels refused to destroy sinners? He would probably command holy angels do it. Are holy angels guilty of sinning when God commands them to destroy sinners? I don't think so.

TE: Of course. What a question. They are guilty of sinning when God permits them to lie and they lie. They are guilty of blasphemy when God permits them to blaspheme and they blaspheme. If one were innocent of wrong doing because God permitted it, then there would be no such thing as sin at all. One could reason, "God permitted me to do this thing. Therefore it is His will. Therefore it is not sin." using the same exact logic you are using.

MM: Tom, please answer the rest of the questions – “He would probably command holy angels do it. Are holy angels guilty of sinning when God commands them to destroy sinners? I don't think so.”

I'm only seeing one question I didn't address, which is regarding holy angels being guilty of sinning. No beings are guilty of sinning when they do God's will, which is expressed by His law, as well as revealed by Jesus Christ, from whose earthly ministry we learn all things that can be known about God.

I made quite a few comments that you didn't respond to. For example, I made this point:




Also this one:



Do you disagree with my assessment here, in particular, that God is responsible for the evil that happens in the world, since what Satan does is as if God does it, that Satan does God's will.

MM: What is sinful about God commanding holy angels to destroy sinners? How can we blame Satan for something God commanded holy angels to do?

TE: Satan is to blame for sin and all its results. I think that's a direct quote from the Spirit of Prophecy. If not, it's close.

MM: So, according to what you believe, when God commands holy angels to destroy sinners Satan is to blame? I totally disagree.

…………………

MM: Do you disagree that the quotes I posted teach us that God uses trials and trouble to grow us as Christians?

TE: No, just with your interpretation of the quotes.

MM: Does God send trials to grow us? In light of the following inspired insights I’m having a hard time believing God does not use trials to grow us. Please explain how I am misinterpreting them. Thank you.

AG 89
Afflictions, crosses, temptations, adversity, and our varied trials are God's workmen to refine us, sanctify us, and fit us for the heavenly garner. {AG 89.2}

1T 706, 707
These trials of life are God's workmen to remove the impurities, infirmities, and roughness from our characters, and fit us for the society of pure, heavenly angels in glory. But as we pass through these trials, as the fires of affliction kindle upon us, we must not keep the eye on the fire which is seen, but let the eye of faith fasten upon the things unseen, the eternal inheritance, the immortal life, the eternal weight of glory; and while we do this the fire will not consume us, but only remove the dross, and we shall come forth seven times purified, bearing the impress of the Divine. {1T 706.2}

MB 10
The trials of life are God's workmen, to remove the impurities and roughness from our character. Their hewing, squaring, and chiseling, their burnishing and polishing, is a painful process; it is hard to be pressed down to the grinding wheel. But the stone is brought forth prepared to fill its place in the heavenly temple. Upon no useless material does the Master bestow such careful, thorough work. Only His precious stones are polished after the similitude of a palace. {MB 10.3}

………………….

MM: Tom, please answer the rest of the questions – “He would probably command holy angels do it. Are holy angels guilty of sinning when God commands them to destroy sinners? I don't think so.”

TE: I'm only seeing one question I didn't address, which is regarding holy angels being guilty of sinning. No beings are guilty of sinning when they do God's will, which is expressed by His law, as well as revealed by Jesus Christ, from whose earthly ministry we learn all things that can be known about God.

MM: Okay, then, please answer this one question – “Are holy angels guilty of sinning when God commands them to destroy sinners?” Here is the basis of my question:

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

……………….

TE: If one were innocent of wrong doing because God permitted it, then there would be no such thing as sin at all. One could reason, "God permitted me to do this thing. Therefore it is His will. Therefore it is not sin." using the same exact logic you are using.

MM: In what way does God permit things to happen? Does God permit us to sin? I believe He does. And, we are guilty when we exercise our freedom to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. But when God permits evil angles to fulfill His will are they guilty of sinning? I don’t think they are any more “guilty” than when He commands holy angels to destroy sinners.

If God forgot for a second to restrain the evil angels, and they took advantage of this oversight and destroyed sinners, then, yes, evil angels would be guilty. But if sinners fill up their cup of woe and wrath, and God gives evil angels permission to destroy them, then I do not believe they are guilty of sinning.

If the evil angels refused to fulfill God's will in the case of humans who have filled up their cup of woe and wrath, then I suspect God would command holy angels to destroy them. Which is consistent with all the other times God commanded holy angels to punish and destroy sinners. Do you agree?

………………………..

TE: Do you disagree with my assessment here, in particular, that God is responsible for the evil that happens in the world, since what Satan does is as if God does it, that Satan does God's will.

MM: I agree with it. Whether God commands holy angels, or gives evil angels permission, to cause death and destruction - I believe God is responsible for the outcome. I do not believe God leaves it up to Satan to orchestrate the outcome of the things He commands or permits. Holy angels are commissioned to make sure evil angels do not undermine the outcome God has ordained. Do you agree?

MM: What is sinful about God commanding holy angels to destroy sinners? How can we blame Satan for something God commanded holy angels to do?

TE: Satan is to blame for sin and all its results. I think that's a direct quote from the Spirit of Prophecy. If not, it's close.

MM: So, according to what you believe, when God commands holy angels to destroy sinners Satan is to blame? I totally disagree.

You are disagreeing with your own misrepresentation of what I've been saying. Again, we're getting off topic a bit. What you stated before, which was the starting point for this topic, was *evil* angels doing something was tantamount to God's doing the thing. This is what I was questioning. Not whether Satan is to blame for the things which God commands holy angels to do.
…………………

MM: Do you disagree that the quotes I posted teach us that God uses trials and trouble to grow us as Christians?

TE: No, just with your interpretation of the quotes.

MM: Does God send trials to grow us? In light of the following inspired insights I’m having a hard time believing God does not use trials to grow us. Please explain how I am misinterpreting them. Thank you.

The purpose of this topic was to discuss whether or not Satan's doing something is the same as God's doing the thing. God *allows* certain things to happen, but that's not equivalent to God's doing the thing which He allows. That's my position, and nothing from the Spirit of Prophecy or Scripture disagrees with this idea.

Your interpretation of the quotes, as I have understood it, is that God is actually doing, or initiating, the things specified in the quotes. The first one, for example, speaks of temptations as one of God's workmen. But we know that God does not tempt anyone. So the sense of the quote must be that God *permits* these things to happen to us, not that He causes them to happen.

AG 89
Afflictions, crosses, temptations, adversity, and our varied trials are God's workmen to refine us, sanctify us, and fit us for the heavenly garner. {AG 89.2}

1T 706, 707
These trials of life are God's workmen to remove the impurities, infirmities, and roughness from our characters, and fit us for the society of pure, heavenly angels in glory. But as we pass through these trials, as the fires of affliction kindle upon us, we must not keep the eye on the fire which is seen, but let the eye of faith fasten upon the things unseen, the eternal inheritance, the immortal life, the eternal weight of glory; and while we do this the fire will not consume us, but only remove the dross, and we shall come forth seven times purified, bearing the impress of the Divine. {1T 706.2}

MB 10
The trials of life are God's workmen, to remove the impurities and roughness from our character. Their hewing, squaring, and chiseling, their burnishing and polishing, is a painful process; it is hard to be pressed down to the grinding wheel. But the stone is brought forth prepared to fill its place in the heavenly temple. Upon no useless material does the Master bestow such careful, thorough work. Only His precious stones are polished after the similitude of a palace. {MB 10.3}

………………….

TE: If one were innocent of wrong doing because God permitted it, then there would be no such thing as sin at all. One could reason, "God permitted me to do this thing. Therefore it is His will. Therefore it is not sin." using the same exact logic you are using.

MM: In what way does God permit things to happen? Does God permit us to sin? I believe He does. And, we are guilty when we exercise our freedom to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. But when God permits evil angles to fulfill His will are they guilty of sinning? I don’t think they are any more “guilty” than when He commands holy angels to destroy sinners.

I couldn't disagree more. First of all, God is not permitting evil angels to fulfill His will, He is permitting them to fulfill *their* will. This is the biggest point of difference between us. You fail to differentiate between the will of Satan and the will of God. Secondly, whether God permits a human or an angel to sin, and they choose to sin, makes no difference as to whether the act is sin or not. Sin is transgression of the law. It makes no difference whether an angel or human is committing the act. I gave a number of examples of this previously. I'll just give one this time. If God permits a man to blaspheme, and the man blasphemes, this is sin, and it was not God's will that the man blaspheme. Similarly, if God permits an angel to blaspheme, and the angels blasphemes, it was not God's will that the angel blaspheme.

If God forgot for a second to restrain the evil angels, and they took advantage of this oversight and destroyed sinners, then, yes, evil angels would be guilty.

They're guilty in any case. God is innocent of all wrong doing. The angles are guilty for all the sin they've committed, and all the sin they would have committed had they had the opportunity, just like humans.

But if sinners fill up their cup of woe and wrath, and God gives evil angels permission to destroy them, then I do not believe they are guilty of sinning.

Sin is sin. It doesn't become less sinful because God permits it. Let's consider the case of Job. Was Satan guilty of sin for the things he did against Job?

If the evil angels refused to fulfill God's will in the case of humans who have filled up their cup of woe and wrath, then I suspect God would command holy angels to destroy them. Which is consistent with all the other times God commanded holy angels to punish and destroy sinners. Do you agree?

No, of course not. It's not God's will that humans be destroyed. It is His will that they be saved. I already addressed this.

………………………..

TE: Do you disagree with my assessment here, in particular, that God is responsible for the evil that happens in the world, since what Satan does is as if God does it, that Satan does God's will.

MM: I agree with it. Whether God commands holy angels, or gives evil angels permission, to cause death and destruction - I believe God is responsible for the outcome. I do not believe God leaves it up to Satan to orchestrate the outcome of the things He commands or permits. Holy angels are commissioned to make sure evil angels do not undermine the outcome God has ordained. Do you agree?

I disagree with most of this. In particular, you appear to think that God delights in death and destruction whereas I believe Satan delights in these things. Satan is responsible for sin and all its results. God is indirectly responsible in the sense that He created beings which were capable of rebelling against Him, and God has chosen to allow this rebellion to occur, but that is where His responsibility ends. God has graciously accepted teh responsibilty for things which were not His will, which the cross shows. The only part I agree with the last sentence before your question.

In particular, I question this statement, "I do not believe God leaves it up to Satan to orchestrate the outcome of the things He commands or permits." I understand your meaning here to be that God determines (not just in a permissive sense, but in the sense of accomplishing His direct will) what Satan does, and then Satan does His billing. I think this is an awful idea, and hope somehow I'm misunderstanding you.

TE: What you stated before, which was the starting point for this topic, was *evil* angels doing something was tantamount to God's doing the thing. This is what I was questioning. Not whether Satan is to blame for the things which God commands holy angels to do.

MM: Again, whether God commands holy angels or gives evil permission to destroy sinners is equivalent or tantamount to God doing it. Satan is not to blame. In other words, when commands or permits sinners to be destroyed God is responsible – not Satan. The honor and glory belong to God alone.

The holy angels praise God when sinners are destroyed, not Satan. Even though God gives evil angels permission to destroy sinners with the seven last plagues, the holy angels praise God, and give Him all the honor and glory. It is as though God did it Himself.

“And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.” (Rev 16:5-7)

……………………….

TE: Your interpretation of the quotes, as I have understood it, is that God is actually doing, or initiating, the things specified in the quotes. The first one, for example, speaks of temptations as one of God's workmen. But we know that God does not tempt anyone. So the sense of the quote must be that God *permits* these things to happen to us, not that He causes them to happen.

MM: Again, God does not tempt us. But He does regulate how evil angels can tempt us. What would happen if the evil angels refused to tempt us within the limits God allows? I believe God would simply resort to the other ordained means He uses to try us and grow us. One way or another, it is God’s will to grow us with trials. It is not possible for us to grow without them. That’s exactly why it is God’s will.

When God permits evil angels to try us, He sets limits. These limits include everything they cannot do. The reason God gives evil angels permission to try us is because God wants us to grow and mature as Christians. Who knows better than God which trials can help us grow in ways God knows is best for us? He certainly isn’t going to leave such an important decision to the discretion of evil angels. Father knows best. In this sense, whether God causes or permits it makes no difference.

………………………..

TE: If God permits a man to blaspheme, and the man blasphemes, this is sin, and it was not God's will that the man blaspheme. Similarly, if God permits an angel to blaspheme, and the angels blasphemes, it was not God's will that the angel blaspheme.

MM: I agree. Did I post anything that makes you think I believe otherwise?

…………………..

TE: Let's consider the case of Job. Was Satan guilty of sin for the things he did against Job?

MM: I don’t think so. It was God who first brought up Job. “And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? “ (Job 1:8)

……………………….

MM: If the evil angels refused to fulfill God's will in the case of humans who have filled up their cup of woe and wrath, then I suspect God would command holy angels to destroy them. Which is consistent with all the other times God commanded holy angels to punish and destroy sinners. Do you agree?

TE: No, of course not. It's not God's will that humans be destroyed. It is His will that they be saved. I already addressed this.

MM: When humans fill up their cup of woe and wrath, do you mean to say God does not give evil angels permission to destroy them?

GC 20, 21
The hour of hope and pardon was fast passing; the cup of God's long-deferred wrath was almost full. The cloud that had been gathering through ages of apostasy and rebellion, now black with woe, was about to burst upon a guilty people; and He who alone could save them from their impending fate had been slighted, abused, rejected, and was soon to be crucified. {GC 20.3}

GC 627
The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

5BC 1124
The cup of suffering Christ had taken from the lips of guilty man, and proposed to drink it Himself, and, in its place, give to man the cup of blessing. The wrath that would have fallen upon man, was now falling upon Christ (Sufferings of Christ, pp. 17, 18). {5BC 1124.3}

1T 363
Time will last a little longer until the inhabitants of the earth have filled up the cup of their iniquity, and then the wrath of God, which has so long slumbered, will awake, and this land of light will drink the cup of His unmingled wrath. The desolating power of God is upon the earth to rend and destroy. The inhabitants of the earth are appointed to the sword, to famine, and to pestilence. {1T 363.4}

GC 614
The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

…………………….

TE: In particular, you appear to think that God delights in death and destruction whereas I believe Satan delights in these things.

MM: You have misunderstood me. God’s desire is that none perish. And yet He knows most will. God will be happy when the wicked are punished and destroyed from off the face of the earth.

TE: God is indirectly responsible in the sense that He created beings which were capable of rebelling against Him, and God has chosen to allow this rebellion to occur, but that is where His responsibility ends.

MM: I agree. But I would also hasten to add that God is actively and intimately involved in making sure the GC unfolds according to His master plan. Which includes commanding holy angels or giving evil angels permission to destroy sinners.

………………………

TE: In particular, I question this statement, "I do not believe God leaves it up to Satan to orchestrate the outcome of the things He commands or permits." I understand your meaning here to be that God determines (not just in a permissive sense, but in the sense of accomplishing His direct will) what Satan does, and then Satan does His billing. I think this is an awful idea, and hope somehow I'm misunderstanding you.

MM: It think it would be an “awful idea” if God did not reign in and regulate what Satan does and does not do. It would be depressing to believe that God is not in control of the GC, that Satan is free to do as he pleases. I am very, very glad God is the one who determines what can and cannot happen to us and our planet. I’m sorry you do not feel the same way.

TE: What you stated before, which was the starting point for this topic, was *evil* angels doing something was tantamount to God's doing the thing. This is what I was questioning. Not whether Satan is to blame for the things which God commands holy angels to do.

MM: Again, whether God commands holy angels or gives evil permission to destroy sinners is equivalent or tantamount to God doing it.

This isn't true. One could argue that if God commands holy angles to do something that this is equivalent or tantamount to God doing it, but permitting evil beings permission to do evil is something altogether different. God did not cause the holocaust. God did torture thousands in the Middle Ages (and not today). God never acts contrary to how Christ acted. God is nothing like Satan. It's a mistake to confuse God with His enemy, who is a liar, a thief and a murderer.

Satan is not to blame.

Satan is to blame.



This is the truth. Satan is the author of sin and all its results. He leads men to look at God as responsible for suffering, but this is a lie.

In other words, when commands or permits sinners to be destroyed God is responsible – not Satan.

No, this is Satan's lie. It is he who perverts the truth and causes people to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God. But Satan is the autor of sin and all its results.

The honor and glory belong to God alone.

Honor and glory belong to God alone, but sin and all its results belong to Satan.

The holy angels praise God when sinners are destroyed, not Satan. Even though God gives evil angels permission to destroy sinners with the seven last plagues, the holy angels praise God, and give Him all the honor and glory. It is as though God did it Himself.

“And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.” (Rev 16:5-7)

I start all sorts of different threads, about all sorts of different topics, but you seem to have a one track mind. Every thread, virtually every post, all you can talk about is God's destroying.

……………………….

TE: Your interpretation of the quotes, as I have understood it, is that God is actually doing, or initiating, the things specified in the quotes. The first one, for example, speaks of temptations as one of God's workmen. But we know that God does not tempt anyone. So the sense of the quote must be that God *permits* these things to happen to us, not that He causes them to happen.

MM: Again, God does not tempt us.

So, again, God is not actually doing that which He permits Satan to do, which disproves your original assertion. God permitting Satan to do something is not tantamount to Him doing it.

But He does regulate how evil angels can tempt us.

This is not relevant.

What would happen if the evil angels refused to tempt us within the limits God allows?

No one disputes this. There is no reason to bring this up. This is not under discussion.

I believe God would simply resort to the other ordained means He uses to try us and grow us. One way or another, it is God’s will to grow us with trials. It is not possible for us to grow without them. That’s exactly why it is God’s will.

When God permits evil angels to try us, He sets limits. These limits include everything they cannot do. The reason God gives evil angels permission to try us is because God wants us to grow and mature as Christians. Who knows better than God which trials can help us grow in ways God knows is best for us? He certainly isn’t going to leave such an important decision to the discretion of evil angels. Father knows best. In this sense, whether God causes or permits it makes no difference.

It makes all the difference in the world whether God does something or God permits Satan to do something. It is Satan's purpose to misrepresent God, to present Him as doing that which He permits. But God has told us this, so there is no reason for us to believe the enemy's lies. God has shown us what He is really like through His Son Jesus Christ. We can see God's attitude towards sin, and sinners, by beholding Christ. We can also see everything about God, what He does, what He says, how He thinks, by looking at Christ.

………………………..

TE: If God permits a man to blaspheme, and the man blasphemes, this is sin, and it was not God's will that the man blaspheme. Similarly, if God permits an angel to blaspheme, and the angels blasphemes, it was not God's will that the angel blaspheme.

MM: I agree. Did I post anything that makes you think I believe otherwise?

Yes.



This is what makes me think otherwise.

…………………..

TE: Let's consider the case of Job. Was Satan guilty of sin for the things he did against Job?

MM: I don’t think so. It was God who first brought up Job. “And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? “ (Job 1:8)

Interesting. I am moved to start another thread.

……………………….

MM: If the evil angels refused to fulfill God's will in the case of humans who have filled up their cup of woe and wrath, then I suspect God would command holy angels to destroy them. Which is consistent with all the other times God commanded holy angels to punish and destroy sinners. Do you agree?

TE: No, of course not. It's not God's will that humans be destroyed. It is His will that they be saved. I already addressed this.

MM: When humans fill up their cup of woe and wrath, do you mean to say God does not give evil angels permission to destroy them?

No, I mean to say what I said. It is not God's will that humans be destroyed. It is His will to save them. It is Satan's will to destroy humans.

GC 20, 21
The hour of hope and pardon was fast passing; the cup of God's long-deferred wrath was almost full. The cloud that had been gathering through ages of apostasy and rebellion, now black with woe, was about to burst upon a guilty people; and He who alone could save them from their impending fate had been slighted, abused, rejected, and was soon to be crucified. {GC 20.3}

GC 627
The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

5BC 1124
The cup of suffering Christ had taken from the lips of guilty man, and proposed to drink it Himself, and, in its place, give to man the cup of blessing. The wrath that would have fallen upon man, was now falling upon Christ (Sufferings of Christ, pp. 17, 18). {5BC 1124.3}

1T 363
Time will last a little longer until the inhabitants of the earth have filled up the cup of their iniquity, and then the wrath of God, which has so long slumbered, will awake, and this land of light will drink the cup of His unmingled wrath. The desolating power of God is upon the earth to rend and destroy. The inhabitants of the earth are appointed to the sword, to famine, and to pestilence. {1T 363.4}

GC 614
The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

(W)hen men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. (GC 36)

…………………….

TE: In particular, you appear to think that God delights in death and destruction whereas I believe Satan delights in these things.

MM: You have misunderstood me. God’s desire is that none perish. And yet He knows most will. God will be happy when the wicked are punished and destroyed from off the face of the earth.

TE: God is indirectly responsible in the sense that He created beings which were capable of rebelling against Him, and God has chosen to allow this rebellion to occur, but that is where His responsibility ends.

MM: I agree. But I would also hasten to add that God is actively and intimately involved in making sure the GC unfolds according to His master plan. Which includes commanding holy angels or giving evil angels permission to destroy sinners.

God will be sad when the wicked are destroyed. He will weep as for an only child. He will be glad that sin is no more, but sad to love His children, just as we would be. "How can I give you up?" is His heart felt cry.

………………………

TE: In particular, I question this statement, "I do not believe God leaves it up to Satan to orchestrate the outcome of the things He commands or permits." I understand your meaning here to be that God determines (not just in a permissive sense, but in the sense of accomplishing His direct will) what Satan does, and then Satan does His billing. I think this is an awful idea, and hope somehow I'm misunderstanding you.

MM: It think it would be an “awful idea” if God did not reign in and regulate what Satan does and does not do. It would be depressing to believe that God is not in control of the GC, that Satan is free to do as he pleases. I am very, very glad God is the one who determines what can and cannot happen to us and our planet. I’m sorry you do not feel the same way.

The way your phrase things it is often difficult to understand what you are saying. Of course God controls what Satan can or cannot do. No one disputes this. The question is if Satan's will is God's will. You seem to think it is. That's the "awful idea." Not that God sets limits on what Satan can do. Of course God does this, or else we'd all be dead. But does God intend that Satan do the evil that Satan does? I say no, that God never intends that any evil be done, ever. Evil is an abmonination to God, and if God had His way, there would be no evil ever. No suffering, no misery, no pain, no death. None of these things. One day God will have His way, and none of these things will exist. The only reason they exist today is because there are beings who resist His will.

Actually, I think Im more in agreement with Tom. God wishes the death and destruction of noone and will do nothing to keep anyone out of the Kingdom. However, he is also just and will judge the earth and those people who have consistently or foolishly or rabidly rejected his persistent efforts to forgive and give life to them will in the end face the consequences of their choise. God is not one who enjoys causing death or destruction on anyone.
I think there would have been divine mercy for Judas, had he sought forgiveness and been able to accept it when offered instead of the suicide commited. Jesus died so that the Kingdom would be open to Caesar Nero, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, the 911 terrorists, you and me. And he rose again to bring us with him to be with him for all times. And he knows what each on this list has done with the open invitation. But all where invited.
And for all the deeds that these people on the list are infamous for, God is guilty of none, but he nontheless offered to pay all that debt.

A poignant post, Thomas.



Not only offered, but actually did pay the debt, so that all on the list you gave could be saved.



Certainly! Look at Peter. EGW tells us if not for Christ's compassionate look, his end would have been the same as Judas'. Unfortunately, Judas wanted nothing to do with a God like Christ.



Very nicely put.

TE: One could argue that if God commands holy angles to do something that this is equivalent or tantamount to God doing it … It is [Satan] who perverts the truth and causes people to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God.

MM: So, which is it? Is God or Satan responsible for the death and destruction caused by holy angels?

GC 614
The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

……………….

MM: The holy angels praise God when sinners are destroyed, not Satan. Even though God gives evil angels permission to destroy sinners with the seven last plagues, the holy angels praise God, and give Him all the honor and glory. It is as though God did it Himself.

“And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.” (Rev 16:5-7)

TE: I start all sorts of different threads, about all sorts of different topics, but you seem to have a one track mind. Every thread, virtually every post, all you can talk about is God's destroying.

MM: Thank you for that candid observation. Now, do you agree with my observation?

……………………

MM: When humans fill up their cup of woe and wrath, do you mean to say God does not give evil angels permission to destroy them?

TE: No, I mean to say what I said. It is not God's will that humans be destroyed. It is His will to save them. It is Satan's will to destroy humans. … But does God intend that Satan do the evil that Satan does? I say no, that God never intends that any evil be done, ever.

MM: When humans fill up the cup of God’s wrath and vengeance and God pulls the stops restraining evil angels – what does God expect will happen? I believe He expects the evil angels to destroy them. Do you disagree?

TV: Actually, I think Im more in agreement with Tom.

MM: What does he believe?

TV: God wishes the death and destruction of noone and will do nothing to keep anyone out of the Kingdom.

MM: I agree. God is doing everything He can to get people into heaven.

TV: However, he is also just and will judge the earth and those people who have consistently or foolishly or rabidly rejected his persistent efforts to forgive and give life to them will in the end face the consequences of their choise.

MM: I agree.

TV: God is not one who enjoys causing death or destruction on anyone.

MM: True, but neither will He withhold it when it is appropriate. But God’s attitude about the punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire will be the same as the holy angels'. Do you agree?

TV: And for all the deeds that these people on the list are infamous for, God is guilty of none, but he nontheless offered to pay all that debt.

MM: I agree.