Thanks so much for your input, Terry!

If you put in breaks between the paragraphs, it makes it easier to read. You can do this by using the "Enter" key to make a space between the paragraphs. Also you can use the quote tag to quote material. For example:



You do this by typing "[" followed by "quote]" followed by the text you want to quote, and then closing the tag by typing "[" followed by "\quote]".

Hope that makes sense, and hope to hear more from you!


Welcome,

Tom

Terry, it sounds like you and I are in agreement. Please take the time to read this thread from the beginning and let me know if you think we are in agreement. Thank you.

No, regarding if the quotes you provided support your position. The quotes present that a radical transformation takes place, and there's no doubt about that. The transformation is described here:



The means to conversion is beholding Christ, in whom we see God's love and character. The sight of Him subdues the heart, leading the sinner to seek to be reconciled.

The part that is absent in the quotes you provided, and in Scripture, is the idea that we have to made aware of every sinful habit and confess them before being converted.

TE: So would I be correct in assuming that from your point of view, no one who smokes or drinks has been converted?

MM: Correct.

So no one who had not given up smoking or drinking at the time they died will be in heaven?

TE: The part that is absent in the quotes you provided, and in Scripture, is the idea that we have to made aware of every sinful habit and confess them before being converted.

MM: Not so. Even in your quote it is there – “If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.” Not one sinful, cultivated habit is left unrevealed, to be brought to our attention later on.

TE: So no one who had not given up smoking or drinking at the time they died will be in heaven?

MM: Why didn’t they give up smoking or drinking? Were they convicted of the sinfulness of smoking or drinking but refused to quit?

TE: The part that is absent in the quotes you provided, and in Scripture, is the idea that we have to made aware of every sinful habit and confess them before being converted.

MM: Not so. Even in your quote it is there – “If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.” Not one sinful, cultivated habit is left unrevealed, to be brought to our attention later on.

There's nothing in the quote that says what you wrote. You just added it, without justification.

TE: So no one who had not given up smoking or drinking at the time they died will be in heaven?

MM: Why didn’t they give up smoking or drinking? Were they convicted of the sinfulness of smoking or drinking but refused to quit?

You shouldn't be asking this. You have stated that *every* sinful habit is revealed, without exception. You have also identified smoking and drinking as sinful habits. So if every habit must be revealed before one is converted, and smoking and drinking are sinful habits, then clearly, based on what you have stated, these habits would have had to have been revealed. So you shouldn't be asking for clarification.

If the person could be in heaven for the reason that they were not convicted of the sinful habit, then your assertion that no one can be converted unless every sinful habit is revealed and confessed is false. You would have to replace it with the assertion that one is not lost unless the sinful habit is one which has been revealed and the person refused to repent, in which case you would be in agreement with me and many others.

I wondered if it is too much to consider that God who knows each and every heart completly decides on the intentions of a persons heart and character and how they live up to the light they have received.

I don't know if an ignorant person in Africa knows about ??? Sabbath??? or perhaps who Jesus is and yet God judges them fairly.

Romans 2 speaks to this.
2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

(There is a standard required of every man regardless of knowledge and it comes from the Holy Spirit as we know from John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:)

Romans goes on in chapter 2;
2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

It is my understanding that God is revealing more and more truth until all is known that He deems sufficient and some will live up to all the revealed light so that in fact they will truly represent God's character and be ready for translation.

Proverbs 4:18 says But the path of the just [is] as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

That perfect day as I see it refers to the end of time.

Jesus told His disciples in John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

I don't believe they knew all things and time has proven that truth is constantly unfolding.

E.G. White says In every age there is a new development of truth, a message of God to the people of that generation. The old truths are all essential; new truth is not independent of the old, but an unfolding of it. It is only as the old truths are understood that we can comprehend the new. When Christ desired to open to His disciples the truth of His resurrection, He began "at Moses and all the prophets" and "expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." Luke 24:27. But it is the light which shines in the fresh unfolding of truth that glorifies the old. He who rejects or neglects the new does not really possess the old. For him it loses its vital power and becomes but a lifeless form. {COL 127.4}

As the people of the last days I believe God's truths, His plans and His CHARACTER are being revealed fully so that we can glorify Him in fullness by standing in perfection of character by His strength.

By my understanding it is then we will be sealed by God having His name written in our forehead.

For those that died in the past without having lived in perfect obedience to God's principles it is my belief that God judges on the basis that they lived up to what they knew and the fact that He knows exactly how a person will respond to the balance of truth needed for acceptance into heaven.

I thank God that he is able to change me completely that I may stand faultless before the throne, by Christ forgiving my sins before conversion, by forgiving me when I fall now and by giving me a new heart and a new spirit that knows His way for me is perfect and as I understand Him and the beauty of His purpose for me my choices will choose His way and by my choices they will allow God to make me a new creature that will not sin.

May God bless this discussion that we may all learn from each other and come to unity of spirit.

Terry

MM: Not so. Even in your quote it is there – “If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.” Not one sinful, cultivated habit is left unrevealed, to be brought to our attention later on.

TE: There's nothing in the quote that says what you wrote. You just added it, without justification.

MM: I disagree. Here’s how I see it:

“If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.” The word “sins” is plural. Every sinful habit we have cultivated crucified Jesus. Not one doesn’t. Therefore, we will be led to repent of each one. Not one will be reserved by the Holy Spirit to be dealt with after we are born again.

“Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.” The “new life” does not include the sinful habits we cultivated during our old life. Our “thoughts and desires” are in obedience to the will of Christ. Not one is allowed to continue cultivating our former sinful habits.

…………………

TE: If the person could be in heaven for the reason that they were not convicted of the sinful habit, then your assertion that no one can be converted unless every sinful habit is revealed and confessed is false. You would have to replace it with the assertion that one is not lost unless the sinful habit is one which has been revealed and the person refused to repent, in which case you would be in agreement with me and many others.

MM: I agree. There are times when God chooses not to point out to certain individuals that smoking and drinking are sinful habits that must be confessed and forsaken before they can be rewarded with eternal life.

In such cases God winks at ignorance. Thus, they are not guilty of refusing to obey God. The Gentiles Paul mentioned in Romans fall into this category of people who will be saved in spite of the fact they did not know all truth.

Romans
2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

It would be fruitful to explore why God chooses not to reveal certain sinful habits. In well-informed America, would God choose not to reveal to smokers and drinkers that these sinful habits must be given up in order to experience the miracle of rebirth?

For example, during one of our many public SDA evangelistic crusades, would God choose not to reveal these truths? Would He choose to not make giving up smoking and drinking a prerequisite for rebirth?

Terry: It is my understanding that God is revealing more and more truth until all is known that He deems sufficient and some will live up to all the revealed light so that in fact they will truly represent God's character and be ready for translation.

MM: Does this apply to truths necessary to crucify our cultivated sinful habits? In other words, is God withholding truths needful to overcome our cultivated sinful habits? Is He waiting to reveal these truths until the end of time? If so, this doesn’t make sense to me. It makes God responsible for the cultivated sinful habits we do not crucify. Do you see what I mean?

Terry: For those that died in the past without having lived in perfect obedience to God's principles it is my belief that God judges on the basis that they lived up to what they knew and the fact that He knows exactly how a person will respond to the balance of truth needed for acceptance into heaven.

MM: I agree with this principle, but it sounds like we are applying it differently. I believe it applies to intellectual truths, and not to truths required to cultivate character. God will not change our character when returns. All character defects must be revealed and confessed and crucified before we die.

4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross. {4T 429.2}

I realize God makes certain exceptions in cases involving the Gentiles Paul referred to in Romans, but we cannot make wide sweeping generalizations based on it. For example, Sister White wrote about certain slaves not making it to heaven:

EW 276
I saw that the slave master [SEE APPENDIX.] will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied. {EW 276.1}