MM: Does this apply to truths necessary to crucify our cultivated sinful habits? In other words, is God withholding truths needful to overcome our cultivated sinful habits? Is He waiting to reveal these truths until the end of time? If so, this doesn’t make sense to me. It makes God responsible for the cultivated sinful habits we do not crucify. Do you see what I mean?

Terry: my intention was not to infer that God witholds truth needed to overcome our sinful habits. Faith is the victory over our habits; God will change our needs and desires if we will let Him but it can take deeep faith. What God; in my understanding is revealing to us in these last days is His character. His character is what we need to emulate, by His power, that we will be able to glorify Him to the world and be ready for translation. Our relationship with God must be based on a true understanding of who He is and how He deals with humanity and the sin problem. If we do not know Him how can we truly have an everlasting relationship with Him?

MM: I agree with this principle, but it sounds like we are applying it differently. I believe it applies to intellectual truths, and not to truths required to cultivate character. God will not change our character when returns. All character defects must be revealed and confessed and crucified before we die.

Terry: Indeed God will not change our character except we allow Him. A person can have a character totally in harmony with God and yet not know all the truth about God. I believe the thief on the cross is one of the best examples, David, a man after god's heart is a second and so on. these are acceptable to God and into the kingdom.

MM: I realize God makes certain exceptions in cases involving the Gentiles Paul referred to in Romans, but we cannot make wide sweeping generalizations based on it. For example, Sister White wrote about certain slaves not making it to heaven:

EW 276
I saw that the slave master [SEE APPENDIX.] will have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes. But He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been, while the master must endure the seven last plagues and then come up in the second resurrection and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the justice of God will be satisfied. {EW 276.1}

Terry: Sister White is in harmony with scripture the key I believe is in her statement that he knows nothing of God. in other words he has not hearkened to the Holy Spirit.

Terry: I wonder, do we subconsciously struggle with giving God authority over our understanding and this then becomes the wall we run into that makes it seem so difficult to give up those sinful practices.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

May God bless all of us as we search for the tools we need in the completion of partnering with God to fulfill His purpose in us.

This is agreeing with what I said, and disagreeing with you said previously. You had been saying that every sinful habit must be revealed before conversion, which you are now seeing is not the case, which is good.

I'm glad we're finally on the same page.

So God reveals some sinful habits before conversion, and some afterwards, which is what everyone here believes.

TE: I'm glad we're finally on the same page.

MM: Tom, there is more to it. Here’s what I wrote about it:



Please address the points I raised. Thank you.

Terry: A person can have a character totally in harmony with God and yet not know all the truth about God.

MM: What do you mean by the “truth about God”? Are there truths, already revealed and not yet revealed, that do not contribute to the perfection of Christian character?

Also, are the 144,000 the only ones ready to be translated alive? In other words, what if the people who will come up in the first resurrection hadn’t died – were they also ready to be translated alive? What was it about Enoch and Elijah that made it possible for them to be translated alive? Were they just as ready as the 144,000?

MM, I don't know what point you want addressed.

What I see is this:

1)You wrote that all sinful habits, without exception, must be revealed by the Holy Spirit to us, and confessed, before we are converted.

2)I asked if smoking and drinking are sinful habits.

3)You said yes, and exempted these habits as being among those which must be revealed by God and confessed before one is converted.

So what this means is that God reveals some sinful habits before conversion, and some He doesn't, which is what I was saying, making you on the same page with the rest of us.

I do see a couple of questions that can be addressed:



Regarding well-informed America, I know many who smoke and drink who have been converted.

Regarding SDA evangelistic crusades, God doesn't choose what to bring out in these crusades, the evangelists do.

Regarding giving up smoking and drinking being a prerequisite for rebirth, it never has been. The prerequites for rebirth are repentance and faith.

Tom, by agreeing that there are times when God chooses not to reveal certain sinful habits to baptismal candidates, before they experience the miracle of rebirth, I want to qualify it by explaining the extenuating circumstances. Again, we both agree it is God who chooses when to reveal or not to reveal certain sinful habits. It is not up to the evangelist.

In the case of smokers and drinkers, especially in well-informed places like America, I do not believe God approves of SDA evangelists baptizing them before they confess and forsake smoking and drinking. I realize it happens, but I do not believe God ordains it. I believe God expects SDA evangelists and pastors to thoroughly indoctrinate baptismal candidates in matters of diet, dress, health, and doctrine before consenting to baptize them.

Do you agree?

Tom, by agreeing that there are times when God chooses not to reveal certain sinful habits to baptismal candidates, before they experience the miracle of rebirth, I want to qualify it by explaining the extenuating circumstances. Again, we both agree it is God who chooses when to reveal or not to reveal certain sinful habits. It is not up to the evangelist.

Of course it's up to the evangelist what he chooses to talk about. God isn't limited by an evangelist, of course, but your hypothetical was dealing with an SDA evangelist speaking about the health message, so in this scenario it's likely that what the user is convicted about will have to do with what the evangelist talks about. But the health message is often brought up after Christ is anyway, so if the listeners respond to the invitation to accept Christ before the healh message is talked about, it's likely none of those things would have been brought up. But as a converted person, once they are brought up, later on, they could be convicted about them then. That's a likely scenario.

In the case of smokers and drinkers, especially in well-informed places like America, I do not believe God approves of SDA evangelists baptizing them before they confess and forsake smoking and drinking.

Conversion is not dependent upon baptism.

I realize it happens, but I do not believe God ordains it. I believe God expects SDA evangelists and pastors to thoroughly indoctrinate baptismal candidates in matters of diet, dress, health, and doctrine before consenting to baptize them.

Do you agree?

None of this matters, as far as the issue we were discussing is involved. I agree that baptismal candidates should be properly instructed.

You had said earlier that all sinful habits cultivated from birth had to be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed before one could be converted. This is false. You have admitted this is false by allowing an exception for smoking and drinking. You should acknowledge that your original statement was wrong, and that you are presenting the same idea as the rest of us have been, which is that God reveals some sinful habits, and some He doesn't (He "winks" at them, to use your language).

MM: What do you mean by the “truth about God”? Are there truths, already revealed and not yet revealed, that do not contribute to the perfection of Christian character?

Terry: Christian perfection is to be like Christ. How can one be like Christ except that he knows His character, His ways and His plans for us. How many truly know who God is and what His plans are? In these last days each person, I believe must have a true relationship with God; one that is based on a spiritual and truthful understanding of the principles that God sets as His own and ours. These are the eternal principles that will fulfill all life for eternity. These are the truths God has set before us for our acceptance or rejection.

MM: Also, are the 144,000 the only ones ready to be translated alive? In other words, what if the people who will come up in the first resurrection hadn’t died – were they also ready to be translated alive? What was it about Enoch and Elijah that made it possible for them to be translated alive? Were they just as ready as the 144,000?

Terry: From E.G.White
Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spake the time, He poured upon us the Holy Spirit, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai. {1T 59.1}
The 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads were the words God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious star containing Jesus' new name. At our happy, holy state the wicked were enraged, and would rush violently up to lay hands on us to thrust us into prison, when we would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and they would fall helpless to the ground. Then it was that the synagogue of Satan knew that God had loved us, who could wash one another's feet, and salute the brethren with a holy kiss, and they worshiped at our feet.
60
{1T 59.2}
Soon our eyes were drawn to the east, for a small black cloud had appeared, about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the sign of the Son of man. In solemn silence we all gazed on the cloud as it drew nearer, and became lighter, glorious, and still more glorious, till it was a great white cloud. The bottom appeared like fire; a rainbow was over the cloud, while around it were ten thousand angels, singing a most lovely song; and upon it sat the Son of man. His hair was white and curly and lay on His shoulders, and upon His head were many crowns. His feet had the appearance of fire; in His right hand was a sharp sickle, in His left a silver trumpet. His eyes were as a flame of fire, which searched His children through and through. {1T 60.1}
Then all faces gathered paleness, and those that God had rejected gathered blackness. Then we all cried out: "Who shall be able to stand? Is my robe spotless?" The angels ceased to sing, and there was a time of awful silence, when Jesus spoke: "Those who have clean hands and pure hearts shall be able to stand; My grace is sufficient for you." At this, our faces lighted up, and joy filled every heart. And the angels struck a note higher and sang again, while the cloud drew still nearer the earth. Then Jesus' silver trumpet sounded, as He descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints, then raised His eyes and hands to heaven, and cried: "Awake! Awake! Awake! ye that sleep in the dust, and arise." Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted, "Alleluia!" as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed, and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. {1T 60.2}

The truth about God is that He is kind, and gracious, merciful, compassionate, patient, One who puts the interests of His children above His own, regardless of the cost to Himself. He is just like Jesus Christ.

The enemy has lied about God's character, portraying him to be altogether such a one as himself, who will resort to any means to get His own way. God is portrayed as being selfish, dictatorial, harsh, and arbitrary.