MM: True, but neither will He withhold it when it is appropriate. But God’s attitude about the punishment and destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire will be the same as the holy angels'. Do you agree?

-And what is the attitude of the holy angels?

TE: One could argue that if God commands holy angles to do something that this is equivalent or tantamount to God doing it … It is [Satan] who perverts the truth and causes people to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God.

MM: So, which is it? Is God or Satan responsible for the death and destruction caused by holy angels?

The purpose of this thread is to discuss your assertion that when Satan acts that's tantamount to God's acting; that God uses Satan to do His billing. Unless you can explain how your questions fit into this topic, I'm going to ask that you post it to the topic that was already opened to discussed your question. Thank you.

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MM: The holy angels praise God when sinners are destroyed, not Satan. Even though God gives evil angels permission to destroy sinners with the seven last plagues, the holy angels praise God, and give Him all the honor and glory. It is as though God did it Himself.

“And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.” (Rev 16:5-7)

TE: I start all sorts of different threads, about all sorts of different topics, but you seem to have a one track mind. Every thread, virtually every post, all you can talk about is God's destroying.

MM: Thank you for that candid observation. Now, do you agree with my observation?

Again, please explain how this fits into the topic of this discussion, or post this to the appropriate topic.
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MM: When humans fill up their cup of woe and wrath, do you mean to say God does not give evil angels permission to destroy them?

TE: No, I mean to say what I said. It is not God's will that humans be destroyed. It is His will to save them. It is Satan's will to destroy humans. … But does God intend that Satan do the evil that Satan does? I say no, that God never intends that any evil be done, ever.

MM: When humans fill up the cup of God’s wrath and vengeance and God pulls the stops restraining evil angels – what does God expect will happen? I believe He expects the evil angels to destroy them. Do you disagree?

This seems to be rhetorical. I guess an important point to consider, which we haven't yet, is what is God's desire. That's really where the difference lies between the evil angels and God, and is the core reason why God's permitting something to happen is not tantamount to His doing it Himself.

I think in principle you have already agreed to this in the case of temptation. That is, you have agreed that God does not tempt, yet He permits evil angels to tempt us. So there is a difference between God's doing something and His permitting evil angels to do it, correct?

TV: And what is the attitude of the holy angels?

“And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.” (Rev 16:5-7)

MM: And, what about the other questions I addressed to you in the same post?

TE: One could argue that if God commands holy angles to do something that this is equivalent or tantamount to God doing it….

MM: I agree.

TE: It is [Satan] who perverts the truth and causes people to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God.

MM: This does not apply to those many times God commanded holy angels to destroy sinners. But how are we to know the difference? The results are the same, right? That is, whether or not God commands holy angels or gives evil angels permission to destroy sinners the results are the same. If we cannot tell the difference, what difference does it make? In either case, God’s will is served.

TE: Again, please explain how this fits into the topic of this discussion, or post this to the appropriate topic…. The purpose of this thread is to discuss your assertion that when Satan acts that's tantamount to God's acting; that God uses Satan to do His billing.

MM: The holy angels praise God when sinners are destroyed, not Satan. Even though God gives evil angels permission to destroy sinners, the holy angels praise God, and give Him all the honor and glory. It is as though God did it Himself. I do not believe God “uses” Satan to do His bidding. He has holy angels to do that. But I do believe He allows Satan to do things that serve God’s will and desire. Satan just so happens to be willing to oblige.

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MM: When humans fill up the cup of God’s wrath, and God stops restraining evil angels – what does God expect them to do? I believe He expects the evil angels to destroy them. What other conclusion can there be? In this case, the evil angels are fulfilling God’s will and desire. They are doing exactly what He wants them to do.

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TE: That is, you have agreed that God does not tempt, yet He permits evil angels to tempt us. So there is a difference between God's doing something and His permitting evil angels to do it, correct?

MM: Only as it applies to evil angels tempting us to sin. By the way, it is God’s will and desire that we resist the temptations He allows. Otherwise, He wouldn’t allow evil angels to tempt us.

TE: That is, you have agreed that God does not tempt, yet He permits evil angels to tempt us. So there is a difference between God's doing something and His permitting evil angels to do it, correct?

MM: Only as it applies to evil angels tempting us to sin.

By the way, it is God’s will and desire that we resist the temptations He allows. Otherwise, He wouldn’t allow evil angels to tempt us.

This is faulty logic. (I mean starting from the "by the way" The first sentence doesn't have a problem in logic).

The error in logic is that it is possible that there are other reasons for why God would allow evil angels to tempt us other than His will and desire that we resist the temptations He allows. This isn't saying that it's not the case that God desires us to resist temptation, which is of course true. The error in logic is the way you are linking these together. In other words, the "otherwise" does not follow.

If this isn't clear, I'm provide an analogy.

The other question was what Tom believes about this. There are pages upon pages in this thread alone where Tom spells out his view about this. You have read it, have you understood it?

Good answer!

Thomas, do you agree with everything Tom has written about this topic? If not, would you be willing to explain how your view differs from his?

Also, would you be willing to summarize my view? I'm curious what you think I believe. I'm pretty sure you have misunderstood me.

Do you agree with me that God's attitude about those who reject Jesus and despise His sacrifice, during the time the seven last plagues are being poured out, will be the same attitude as the holy angels?

MM: The holy angels praise God when evil angels destroy sinners in accordance with the permission God gave them. I do not believe God “uses” evil angels to do His bidding. He has holy angels to do that. But I do believe God allows evil angels to do things that serve His will and desire. It just so happens they are all too willing to oblige.

Do you agree?

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MM: When humans fill up the cup of God’s wrath, and God stops restraining evil angels – what does God expect them to do? I believe He expects the evil angels to destroy them. What other conclusion can there be? In this case, the evil angels are fulfilling God’s will and desire. They are doing exactly what He wants them to do.

Do you agree?

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MM: By the way, it is God’s will and desire that we resist the temptations He allows. Otherwise, He wouldn’t allow evil angels to tempt us.

TE: … it is possible that there are other reasons for why God would allow evil angels to tempt us other than His will and desire that we resist the temptations He allows.

MM: Okay. I’m open to suggestions. What are some of the “other reasons for why God would allow evil angels to tempt us”? By the way, I should have said – “It is God’s will and desire that we resist - unto His honor and glory - the temptations He allows.” By resisting temptation we disprove Satan’s accusations regarding the kingdom and character of God. We vindicate God.

I believe this is the main reason why He allows us to be tempted. He doesn't allow us to be tempted because He questions our loyalty. No way! Instead, God allows to be tempted so that we can demonstrate our loyalty. Test, trial, and temptation are divine appointments to showcase the power and praise of God Almighty.

MM: The holy angels praise God when evil angels destroy sinners in accordance with the permission God gave them. I do not believe God “uses” evil angels to do His bidding.

So you agree that your earlier response was wrong?



He has holy angels to do that. But I do believe God allows evil angels to do things that serve His will and desire. It just so happens they are all too willing to oblige.

Do you agree?

No, not at all. God's will was demonstrated by Jesus Christ. It is not demonstrated by Satan. In Satan we see what God's will is not.

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MM: When humans fill up the cup of God’s wrath, and God stops restraining evil angels – what does God expect them to do? I believe He expects the evil angels to destroy them. What other conclusion can there be? In this case, the evil angels are fulfilling God’s will and desire. They are doing exactly what He wants them to do.

Do you agree?

Of course not. I believe this is Satanic. That is, Satan's will is Satanic, it is not God's will.

Also I believe you are incorrect in assuming that the evil angels will necessarily destroy those who refuse God's protection. He may bless them with riches, power, etc. in order to influence others away from Christ.

When God finally gives up on the those who refuse to respond to His Spirit, His will hasn't changed. He would still have them repent and be saved. He says, "Why will you die?" God is not willing that any should perish. This will is seen in the gift of His Son.


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MM: By the way, it is God’s will and desire that we resist the temptations He allows. Otherwise, He wouldn’t allow evil angels to tempt us.

TE: … it is possible that there are other reasons for why God would allow evil angels to tempt us other than His will and desire that we resist the temptations He allows.

MM: Okay. I’m open to suggestions. What are some of the “other reasons for why God would allow evil angels to tempt us”? By the way, I should have said – “It is God’s will and desire that we resist - unto His honor and glory - the temptations He allows.” By resisting temptation we disprove Satan’s accusations regarding the kingdom and character of God. We vindicate God.

I believe this is the main reason why He allows us to be tempted. He doesn't allow us to be tempted because He questions our loyalty. No way! Instead, God allows to be tempted so that we can demonstrate our loyalty. Test, trial, and temptation are divine appointments to showcase the power and praise of God Almighty.

Of course when God allows us to be tempted He desires that we resist. As to another reason why God allows us to be tempted, the fundamental reason is because there is a Great Controversy going on, and the only way it can be demonstrated what God's principles are in contrast to Satan's is to allow Satan the ability to make his case. That is, God must allow Satan enough leeway so that Satan cannot answer back, "You were unfair. I could have made my case if you had not prevented me from doing what I wanted, but you so tied my hands that I was never able to demonstrate the principles of my kingdom.