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Does the end justify the means?
#82310
12/08/06 08:59 PM
12/08/06 08:59 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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We discussed this in the past, but it's been awhile. Here's a post from MM from a different topic: MM: Is God “glad” Jesus’ death on the cross saves millions? Yes, of course He is. Is God “glad” that the blood of martyrs motivates others to embrace Jesus? Yes, of course He is. Is God “glad” when rape serves to cause victims to give their hearts to Jesus? Yes, of course He is. Trials and trouble are a means to an end. The end justifies the means. I'm interested in discussing the last sentence, "the end justifies the means." I don't know how to create a poll. If someone wants to do that, that would be cool. The question would be "Does the end justify the means?" and the responses would be "Yes" or "No." Of course anyone setting up the poll would be free to set it up however they like, but that would be my suggestion. Tom
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Tom]
#82314
12/08/06 10:15 PM
12/08/06 10:15 PM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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The means establishes the end.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Luk 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: John Boskovic]
#82327
12/09/06 06:13 AM
12/09/06 06:13 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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The end justify the means once got Jesus killed:
Joh 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, told them, "You don't know anything!
Joh 11:50 You don't realize that it is better for you to have one man die for the people than to have the whole nation destroyed."
/Thomas
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: vastergotland]
#82332
12/09/06 02:40 PM
12/09/06 02:40 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Perhaps it would be helpful to define what the phrase under question means:
"The ends justify the means" is a phrase encompassing two beliefs:
1. Morally wrong actions are sometimes necessary to achieve morally right outcomes.
2. Actions can only be considered morally right or wrong by virtue of the morality of the outcome.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_ends_justify_the_means)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Tom]
#82364
12/11/06 02:38 PM
12/11/06 02:38 PM
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"In the world ye shall have tribulation" (John 16:33), says Christ; but in Me ye shall have peace. The trials to which Christians are subjected in sorrow, adversity, and reproach are the means appointed of God to separate the chaff from the wheat. Our pride, selfishness, evil passions, and love of worldly pleasure must all be overcome; therefore God sends us afflictions to test and prove us, and show us that these evils exist in our characters. We must overcome through His strength and grace, that we may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. "For our light affliction," says Paul, "which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor. 4:17, 18). Afflictions, crosses, temptations, adversity, and our varied trials are God's workmen to refine us, sanctify us, and fit us for the heavenly garner. {AG 89.2}
Many of your afflictions have been visited upon you, in the wisdom of God, to bring you closer to the throne of grace. He softens and subdues His children by sorrows and trials. This world is God's workshop, where He fashions us for the courts of heaven. He uses the planing knife upon our quivering hearts until the roughness and irregularities are removed and we are fitted for our proper places in the heavenly building. Through tribulation and distress the Christian becomes purified and strengthened, and develops a character after the model that Christ has given. {AG 89.3}
Let the afflictions which pain us so grievously become instructive lessons, teaching us to press forward toward the mark of the prize of our high calling in Christ. Let us be encouraged by the thought that the Lord is soon to come. Let this hope gladden our hearts. {AG 89.4}
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#82368
12/11/06 03:11 PM
12/11/06 03:11 PM
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OP
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Posts: 14,795
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This isn't saying the end justifies the means. Also these statements should be understood in the light of what Scripture tells us, as well as other of her writings. For example, God does not tempt us, as James points out, and as Ellen White herself has pointed out. He allows these things to come our way, and uses them for our benefit. For example, from "Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing" Temptation is enticement to sin, and this does not proceed from God, but from Satan and from the evil of our own hearts. "God cannot be tempted with evil, and He Himself tempteth no man." James 1:13, R.V. {MB 116.2}
Satan seeks to bring us into temptation, that the evil of our characters may be revealed before men and angels, that he may claim us as his own. In the symbolic prophecy of Zechariah, Satan is seen standing at the right hand of the Angel of the Lord, accusing Joshua, the high priest, who is clothed in filthy garments, and resisting the work that the Angel desires to do for him. This represents the attitude of Satan toward every soul whom Christ is seeking to draw unto Himself. The enemy leads us into sin, and then he accuses us before the heavenly universe as unworthy of the love of God. But "the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" And unto Joshua He said, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." Zechariah 3:1-4. {MB 116.3}
God in His great love is seeking to develop in us the precious graces of His Spirit. He permits us to encounter obstacles, persecution, and hardships, not as a curse, but as the greatest blessing of our lives. Every temptation resisted, every trial bravely borne, gives us a new experience and advances us in the work of character building. The soul that through divine power resists temptation reveals to the world and to the heavenly universe the efficiency of the grace of Christ. {MB 117.1}
But while we are not to be dismayed by trial, bitter though it be, we should pray that God will not permit us to be brought where we shall be drawn away by the desires of our own evil hearts. In offering the prayer that Christ has given, we surrender ourselves to the guidance of God, asking Him to lead us in safe paths. We cannot offer this prayer in sincerity, and yet decide to walk in any way of our own choosing. We shall wait for His hand to lead us; we shall listen to His voice, saying, "This is the way, walk ye in it." Isaiah 30:21. {MB 117.2} Something to notice here is that we should pray that God will not permit us to be drawn away by the desires of our own evil hearts, which, of course, presupposes that there are such desires which can draw us away. Given your view of things, MM, do you think a converted Christian should pray the Lord's prayer?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Tom]
#82375
12/11/06 05:05 PM
12/11/06 05:05 PM
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"He permits us to encounter obstacles, persecution, and hardships, not as a curse, but as the greatest blessing of our lives."
MM: God does not tempt us. But He does try us. Do you agree? And, even though God doesn’t tempt us, He does regulate how Satan tempts us. Do you agree?
1 Corinthians
10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
……………….
TE: Something to notice here is that we should pray that God will not permit us to be drawn away by the desires of our own evil hearts, which, of course, presupposes that there are such desires which can draw us away.
MM: So true. But these desires do not count against us. They are only temptations. If we reist them in Christ we are innocent. Do you agree?
TE: Given your view of things, MM, do you think a converted Christian should pray the Lord's prayer?
MM: Yes. Why not? Is there something about the view I have embraced that makes you think otherwise?
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#82386
12/11/06 07:21 PM
12/11/06 07:21 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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We seem to have gotten away from the topic, which is whether the ends justify the means. You (MM) made the statement that it does, but so far haven't presented any evidence for this idea, which sounds to me more like something Marx would say than Christ. God permits certain things to happen to us, but these things are not God's will, except in a permissive sense. God works all things together for good, so in this sense they are His workman, but God's will is always that good things happen to us. Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. (3 John 2)
(Love) thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity. (1 Cor. 13: 5, 6) Regarding what you wrote about the Lord's prayer, that seems reasonable to me.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Tom]
#82394
12/11/06 09:25 PM
12/11/06 09:25 PM
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Posts: 22,256
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TE: God permits certain things to happen to us, but these things are not God's will, except in a permissive sense. God works all things together for good, so in this sense they are His workman, but God's will is always that good things happen to us.
MM: I agree. In a permissive sense it is God's will for us to experience trials. I suspect, though, that we disagree as to who God allows to try us. I believe God accomplishes His will for us in different ways. Two of them are 1) He commands holy angels to try us, and 2) He gives evil angels permission to try us. In either case, God orchestrates the trial. God does not allow anything to undermine His will for us. He works hard to ensure the most desirable outcome.
I believe, like you, it is God's wish or preference that things were not such that trials are necessary for us to grow. Also, since trials are necessary for us to grow and mature as believers, I believe it would be uncaring and sinfully indulgent for God not to try us. Under the circumstances it is God’s will for us to be tried.
God does not tempt us. But He does try us. And, even though God doesn’t tempt us, He does regulate how Satan tempts us. God sets limits. And holy angels make sure evil angels do not exceed those ordained limits. And I believe evil angels have never exceeded those limits. I also believe they have never passed up the opportunities God gives them to tempt us. Do you agree?
1 Corinthians
10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#82399
12/11/06 11:18 PM
12/11/06 11:18 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: God permits certain things to happen to us, but these things are not God's will, except in a permissive sense. God works all things together for good, so in this sense they are His workman, but God's will is always that good things happen to us.
MM: I agree. In a permissive sense it is God's will for us to experience trials. I suspect, though, that we disagree as to who God allows to try us. I believe God accomplishes His will for us in different ways. Two of them are 1) He commands holy angels to try us, and 2) He gives evil angels permission to try us. In either case, God orchestrates the trial.
What do you mean by "orchestrate"? Is this permissive will or active will? Why do you mean by "try"? Are you speaking of having bad things happen to us, like sickness or death?
God does not allow anything to undermine His will for us. He works hard to ensure the most desirable outcome.
I believe, like you, it is God's wish or preference that things were not such that trials are necessary for us to grow. Also, since trials are necessary for us to grow and mature as believers, I believe it would be uncaring and sinfully indulgent for God not to try us.
You are acting as if it were possible for us to not be tried. How would that be possible? We live in a world full of sin and misery. How could we possibly not be tried?
Under the circumstances it is God’s will for us to be tried.
God does not tempt us. But He does try us.
How do you see the difference between these two words?
And, even though God doesn’t tempt us, He does regulate how Satan tempts us. God sets limits.
Are you stating anything other than the obvious here? Obviously if God didn't set limits, Satan would kill us.
And holy angels make sure evil angels do not exceed those ordained limits. And I believe evil angels have never exceeded those limits. I also believe they have never passed up the opportunities God gives them to tempt us. Do you agree?
Obviously evil angels can not exceed limits. I don't know what the point of this question is. How could anyone say differently? Regarding the second question, I think the evil angels pass up many opportunities to tempt us. For example, God may permit angels to tempt you to smoke pot, but they might choose not to do so (because they know it wouldn't work). They pass up permissible areas of temptation for more promising ones.
1 Corinthians
10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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