Hope you don't mind me adding my two cents.

The question was "Does the ends justify the means?"

When it is God, who knows the end before the beginning, then He is just in all He does. God knows if He permits a certain circumstance in our life what the ultimate outcome will be, therefore He is is always working based on perfect knowledge.

We on the other hand work from very limited knowledge. Our best guess at the outcome of any situation is just that, a guess. Since we do not have all the information, the only correct choice is to be obedient to the One who knows all, where that information is clearly provided by the Word of God, and to trust in His love, grace, and knowledge to help us when we are required to walk by faith.

One section of scripture that comes to mind, which clearly shows that the ends do not justify the means, is Romans 6:1&2.

(Rom 6:1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

The Apostle Paul answered His own question:

(Rom 6:2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Just because the "ends" is God's grace, it does not justify continuing in sin.

Someone mentioned God's perfect will, versus His permissive will.

(1Th 4:3) For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

This verse indicates that it is God's will that all live a sanctified life, free from fornication, but that is not always the case. Not all are surrendered to Him, and not all live holy lives.

Because of God's permissive will, He does not always obtain His perfect will. I know this statement may cause some raised eyebrows, but think about it.

(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Although God is not willing, many still perish, because they will not yield their will to His.

Jesus mourned over Jerusalem, when He said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

His will was to gather them. Their will was not to be gathered.

The good news is that, although He does not always get His will, we can be encouraged because He is not only all knowing, but all powerful. Therefore He can take any circumstance, and make it work for our good.

(Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Do the ends justify the means? No, but God takes whatever is surrendered to Him, and justifies those that love Him.

(1Co 6:11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Welcome forumsearcher.

Nicely written.

MM: I agree. In a permissive sense it is God's will for us to experience trials. I suspect, though, that we disagree as to who God allows to try us. I believe God accomplishes His will for us in different ways. Two of them are 1) He commands holy angels to try us, and 2) He gives evil angels permission to try us. In either case, God orchestrates the trial.

TE: What do you mean by "orchestrate"? Is this permissive will or active will? Why do you mean by "try"? Are you speaking of having bad things happen to us, like sickness or death?

MM: God tries us by allowing trials to befall us and by orchestrating them so that they do not undermine His intended outcome. He is both permissive and active.

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MM: God does not allow anything to undermine His will for us. He works hard to ensure the most desirable outcome. I believe, like you, it is God's wish or preference that things were not such that trials are necessary for us to grow. Also, since trials are necessary for us to grow and mature as believers, I believe it would be uncaring and sinfully indulgent for God not to try us.

TE: You are acting as if it were possible for us to not be tried. How would that be possible? We live in a world full of sin and misery. How could we possibly not be tried?

MM: Again, God does not allow anything to happen to us or to our planet without ensuring the outcome does not undermine His will and desire. The trials God allows to befall us are not random; instead, they are regulated by God to serve His will and desire for us. True, our world is full of sin and misery, but God regulates it to serve His will and desire. There is nothing random or out of control about it.

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MM: Under the circumstances it is God’s will for us to be tried. God does not tempt us. But He does try us.

TE: How do you see the difference between these two words?

MM: To “try us” means to allow trials to befall us for the purpose of growing us as Christians. To “tempt us” means to influence us to sin.

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MM: And, even though God doesn’t tempt us, He does regulate how Satan tempts us. God sets limits.

TE: Are you stating anything other than the obvious here? Obviously if God didn't set limits, Satan would kill us.

MM: I’m not talking about Satan killing us. I’m talking about God regulating how Satan tempts us. Do you see a difference?

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TE: Regarding the second question, I think the evil angels pass up many opportunities to tempt us. For example, God may permit angels to tempt you to smoke pot, but they might choose not to do so (because they know it wouldn't work). They pass up permissible areas of temptation for more promising ones.

MM: What if pot smoking were a weakness of mine, which it isn’t, would God allow evil angels to tempt me indiscriminately? I do not believe God gives evil angels blanket permission to tempt us however they choose. Nor do I believe God leaves it up evil angels to decide how and when they are going to tempt us. I believe God scrutinizes every temptation and decides whether or not to allow it. Evil angels are not given the freedom to choose from a long list temptations from which they choose how and when they are going to tempt us.

FS: Because of God's permissive will, He does not always obtain His perfect will. I know this statement may cause some raised eyebrows, but think about it.

MM: God will never force anyone to love and obey Him. He leaves it up to us. Of course we must abide in Jesus in order to love and obey God. Otherwise, we are too depraved and degenerate to originate it. All of this is according to God’s will. I see no difference in this regard between His permissive will and His perfect will.

But what about God allowing trials to befall us? Does the end justify the means? In this case, the “end” is growth in grace, and the means is “trials”.

It is said that CS Lewis held a belief simmilar to this until the day his wife died...

MM: I agree. In a permissive sense it is God's will for us to experience trials. I suspect, though, that we disagree as to who God allows to try us. I believe God accomplishes His will for us in different ways. Two of them are 1) He commands holy angels to try us, and 2) He gives evil angels permission to try us. In either case, God orchestrates the trial.

TE: What do you mean by "orchestrate"? Is this permissive will or active will? Why do you mean by "try"? Are you speaking of having bad things happen to us, like sickness or death?

MM: God tries us by allowing trials to befall us and by orchestrating them so that they do not undermine His intended outcome. He is both permissive and active.

Are you speaking of having bad things happen to us, like sickness or death? In what way is God active?

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MM: God does not allow anything to undermine His will for us. He works hard to ensure the most desirable outcome. I believe, like you, it is God's wish or preference that things were not such that trials are necessary for us to grow. Also, since trials are necessary for us to grow and mature as believers, I believe it would be uncaring and sinfully indulgent for God not to try us.

TE: You are acting as if it were possible for us to not be tried. How would that be possible? We live in a world full of sin and misery. How could we possibly not be tried?

MM: Again, God does not allow anything to happen to us or to our planet without ensuring the outcome does not undermine His will and desire. The trials God allows to befall us are not random; instead, they are regulated by God to serve His will and desire for us. True, our world is full of sin and misery, but God regulates it to serve His will and desire. There is nothing random or out of control about it.

Your point is elusive. Of course since God doesn't permit certain things to happen, then what does happen is not random. Also since God doesn't permit some things to happen, He is obviously controling things. So you don't really seem to be saying anything. But perhaps you have more in mind, like the things which do happens happen because God intends them to happen? If a loved one dies, is that because God wanted that to happen? (I'm talking active will here. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand what you're thought is.)

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MM: Under the circumstances it is God’s will for us to be tried. God does not tempt us. But He does try us.

TE: How do you see the difference between these two words?

MM: To “try us” means to allow trials to befall us for the purpose of growing us as Christians. To “tempt us” means to influence us to sin.

No one would disagree that God allows trials to come upon us, nor that God uses these trials for our good. Correct? So why are you making this point?

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MM: And, even though God doesn’t tempt us, He does regulate how Satan tempts us. God sets limits.

TE: Are you stating anything other than the obvious here? Obviously if God didn't set limits, Satan would kill us.

MM: I’m not talking about Satan killing us. I’m talking about God regulating how Satan tempts us. Do you see a difference?

You mean that God only allows Satan to tempt us in certain areas, but not in others? That's obvious, isn't it? God won't allow us to be tempted above what we are able. I don't understand why you're wishing to make this point.

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TE: Regarding the second question, I think the evil angels pass up many opportunities to tempt us. For example, God may permit angels to tempt you to smoke pot, but they might choose not to do so (because they know it wouldn't work). They pass up permissible areas of temptation for more promising ones.

MM: What if pot smoking were a weakness of mine, which it isn’t, would God allow evil angels to tempt me indiscriminately? I do not believe God gives evil angels blanket permission to tempt us however they choose. Nor do I believe God leaves it up evil angels to decide how and when they are going to tempt us. I believe God scrutinizes every temptation and decides whether or not to allow it. Evil angels are not given the freedom to choose from a long list temptations from which they choose how and when they are going to tempt us.

I was simply pointing out that it isn't necessarily the case that evil angels always tempt us in areas where God doesn't prevent them, which is what you were asserting. There would be no reason for God to limit angels to tempt you to smoke pot, assuming that's not a temptation you couldn't overcome. But they might not bother, since they know that's not a potential weakness.

Your statement was that the evil angels never pass up an opportunity to tempt us. I was explaining the fallacy in this reasoning. Your response doesn't address my comment, because to show the fallacy in your reasoning it's only necessary to come up with one counterexample. That some counterexample might not be permitted by God has no bearing on the fact that there are counterexamples which disprove your assertion.

TV: It is said that CS Lewis held a belief simmilar to this until the day his wife died...

MM: In what way did he change his mind? Did he switch to believing God has no control over such things? that Satan is free to kill us as he pleases? that God has no say-so in the matter? I hope not!

TE: Are you speaking of having bad things happen to us, like sickness or death? In what way is God active?

MM: Yes. However, perceiving such things as “bad” assumes they are not allowed and regulated by God. He is “active” in that He fights to make sure it is not more than He allows.

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TE: But perhaps you have more in mind, like the things which do happens happen because God intends them to happen? If a loved one dies, is that because God wanted that to happen? (I'm talking active will here. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand what you're thought is.)

MM: Nothing happens that God does not, given the circumstances, want to happen. Death is inevitable. So, God gives us an opportunity to honor and glorify Him in how and when we die. He decides how and when. Not Satan, not fate, not us. Our response to it determines whether or not we honor and glorify Him.

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TE: No one would disagree that God allows trials to come upon us, nor that God uses these trials for our good. Correct? So why are you making this point?

MM: I believe it is, given the circumstances, His will and desire. The end justifies the means. Do you agree?

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TE: You mean that God only allows Satan to tempt us in certain areas, but not in others? That's obvious, isn't it? God won't allow us to be tempted above what we are able. I don't understand why you're wishing to make this point.

MM: The point is – Satan can tempt no one without God’s express permission. The reason God allows it is to give us an opportunity to disprove Satan’s accusations that God’s law cannot be obeyed, that God is tyrannical for requiring us to obey it. Satan’s temptations are a means to an end. Otherwise, God would not allow it. Do you agree?

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TE: Your statement was that the evil angels never pass up an opportunity to tempt us. I was explaining the fallacy in this reasoning.

MM: Again, God does not leave it up to evil angels to decide how and when to tempt us to sin. Every temptation is approved by God. Whether or not evil angels pass up such opportunities is unlikely. You believe you know for sure there are plenty of times when they do. I would like to qualify my previous post by saying – It is unlikely.

What "circumstances" have an effect on God's will?
How do "circumstances" come into the equation?
Isn't man's choice also a "circumstance"?
Isn't Satan a "circumstance"?
What circumstance is a "circumstance"?

Amen!