TE: Are you speaking of having bad things happen to us, like sickness or death? In what way is God active?

MM: Yes. However, perceiving such things as “bad” assumes they are not allowed and regulated by God.

God's allowing a thing to happen does not make a bad thing good. A woman being raped, a child being abused, are not part of God's plan for anything. These things are evil.

He is “active” in that He fights to make sure it is not more than He allows.

………………

TE: But perhaps you have more in mind, like the things which do happens happen because God intends them to happen? If a loved one dies, is that because God wanted that to happen? (I'm talking active will here. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand what you're thought is.)

MM: Nothing happens that God does not, given the circumstances, want to happen.

Everything that is contrary to what we see in Christ, everything that is contrary to the principles of love, the principles revealed by His law, is not what God wants to happen.

Death is inevitable. So, God gives us an opportunity to honor and glorify Him in how and when we die. He decides how and when. Not Satan, not fate, not us. Our response to it determines whether or not we honor and glorify Him.

You appear not to believe in free will.

…………………

TE: No one would disagree that God allows trials to come upon us, nor that God uses these trials for our good. Correct? So why are you making this point?

MM: I believe it is, given the circumstances, His will and desire. The end justifies the means. Do you agree?

What do you think?

………………

TE: You mean that God only allows Satan to tempt us in certain areas, but not in others? That's obvious, isn't it? God won't allow us to be tempted above what we are able. I don't understand why you're wishing to make this point.

MM: The point is – Satan can tempt no one without God’s express permission. The reason God allows it is to give us an opportunity to disprove Satan’s accusations that God’s law cannot be obeyed, that God is tyrannical for requiring us to obey it. Satan’s temptations are a means to an end. Otherwise, God would not allow it. Do you agree?

No, I don't think I agree with any of this.

………………………..

TE: Your statement was that the evil angels never pass up an opportunity to tempt us. I was explaining the fallacy in this reasoning.

MM: Again, God does not leave it up to evil angels to decide how and when to tempt us to sin. Every temptation is approved by God. Whether or not evil angels pass up such opportunities is unlikely.

I guess you've seen the fallacy of your statement, since you're backing off from it.

You believe you know for sure there are plenty of times when they do. I would like to qualify my previous post by saying – It is unlikely.

Well that's closer. It depends on the opportunity. It's extrememly likely they would pass up on the tempting you with pot opportunity, but not likely they would pass up on other more promising opportunities. You're not qualifying your statement correctly. You should qualify it like this: Many of the temptations which God allows the evil angels to tempt us with, they take advantage of.

Dont know, I or you would have to read his books on the subject to find out.

The fallacy behind these questions is that it presupposes only two ways of looking at things, which is the way MM looks at them, and the way these questions are implying are the only alternative. C. S. Lewis could have stopped looking at things in the traditional Augustinian way, and started looking at them in a non-Augustinian way, which is nothing like what MM is saying.

That is, MM is presenting two alternatives:
a.Augustinian theology
b.His understanding of non-Augustinian theology.

But b. is not the only alternative to a.

To clarify, Augustine taught that everything that happens is God's will. This idea was incorporated into the Catholic church, and into some of the Reformers as well, most notably Calvin (and to some extent Luther).

An alternative theology is that not everything that happens is God's will, but that there is a war going on, between good and evil.

In Augustinian theology, Satan and his hosts are simply pawns, to be used by God as He see fits. Nothing happens that is not God's will. If a loved one dies, if one is raped, if a child is abused, all of this fits into God's plan. We may not understand why, but we are to trust that God knows best, and some time we will see why God had the woman raped, the child abused, and so on.

An alternative theology is that God did not have the woman raped, or the child abused, or any of a million other horrors. Rather these things happen contrary to God's will, who is working tirelessly to bring these things to an end. These things happen in spite of God's will, not because of it.

MM: Nothing happens that God does not, given the circumstances, want to happen.

JB: What "circumstances" have an effect on God's will?
How do "circumstances" come into the equation?
Isn't man's choice also a "circumstance"?
Isn't Satan a "circumstance"?
What circumstance is a "circumstance"?

MM: By “circumstances” I mean the great controversy. In other words, because of the sin problem, because God wants us, and the onlooking universe, to understand the truth about good and evil, He must command holy angels and permit evil angels to cause suffering and death. These things are necessary to teach us the truth about good and evil. That’s what God wants. That is His will and desire. Of course He wishes circumstances did not make it so. But the end justifies the means. In fact, God has no choice. The circumstances have forced Him into it.

Do you agree?

TE: God's allowing a thing to happen does not make a bad thing good.

MM: I believe it depends on why He commanded it or permitted it as to whether or not it is “bad” or “evil”.

……………..

MM: Death is inevitable. So, God gives us an opportunity to honor and glorify Him in how and when we die. He decides how and when. Not Satan, not fate, not us. Our response to it determines whether or not we honor and glorify Him.

TE: You appear not to believe in free will.

MM: How do you figure? God deciding how and when we will die does not rob us of our freedom or ability to choose.

……………………

MM: I believe it is, given the circumstances, His will and desire. The end justifies the means. Do you agree?

TE: What do you think?

MM: What do I think you think? I think you agree. Did I get it right? If not, then why do you think God commands holy angels and permits evil angels to cause suffering and death?

…………………..

MM: The point is – Satan can tempt no one without God’s express permission. The reason God allows it is to give us an opportunity to disprove Satan’s accusations that God’s law cannot be obeyed, that God is tyrannical for requiring us to obey it. Satan’s temptations are a means to an end. Otherwise, God would not allow it. Do you agree?

TE: No, I don't think I agree with any of this.

MM: Then why do you think God allows Satan to tempt us? Does God have any say-so in the matter? Is Satan free to tempt us? Or, must he first obtain permission from God?

……………………

TE: Many of the temptations which God allows the evil angels to tempt us with, they take advantage of.

MM: I agree. But do you also think there’s a list of temptations that God will allow, and that He leaves up to the evil angels to decide which ones to tempt us with, when and where, and all of that?

Here, finally, is the requested POLL.

Does the end justify the means? single choice
	Yes
	No
Votes accepted starting: 12/13/06 01:33 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

TE: In Augustinian theology, Satan and his hosts are simply pawns, to be used by God as He see fits. Nothing happens that is not God's will. If a loved one dies, if one is raped, if a child is abused, all of this fits into God's plan. We may not understand why, but we are to trust that God knows best, and some time we will see why God had the woman raped, the child abused, and so on.

MM: The idea that “God had” something happen is different than God commanding holy angels or permitting evil angels to cause something to happen.

TE: An alternative theology is that God did not have the woman raped, or the child abused, or any of a million other horrors. Rather these things happen contrary to God's will, who is working tirelessly to bring these things to an end. These things happen in spite of God's will, not because of it.

MM: But this view does not explain why God allows these types of things to happen. Nor does it explain why God commands holy angels and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction. It seems to assume God has no say-so in the matter, that He is just as much a victim of Satan's tyranny as we are.

DF: Here, finally, is the requested POLL.

MM: Since this thread in based on something I posted, I would prefer it if the poll question read - When God allows us to be tried and tested, so that we can grow and mature in the fruit of the Spirit, does the end justify the means?

Thank you.

Free will, the ability to choose after ones own will what to do and act upon it. If I have to get permission to do a sertain thing, it is no longer my will but the will of the person whom I ask for permission from that counts.

The end does never justify the means when God is conserned, is what I believe. The reason for this is that God would not use any means which go against His character to achieve an end. On the way to the cross the last night, Jesus was tempted to change plans and achieve the end with the help of 12 legions of angles rather than by humiliation and torture. God would not use rape to achive an end. If we believe He would, we would have to believe that if Mary had said no when Gabriel told her, God would have made her pregnant nontheless.
The promise that God can turn any situation for good for those who trust Him does not require that God has any part in creating all of those bad situations. We are told that all good gifts come from God, not that *all* gifts come from God.

TE: In Augustinian theology, Satan and his hosts are simply pawns, to be used by God as He see fits. Nothing happens that is not God's will. If a loved one dies, if one is raped, if a child is abused, all of this fits into God's plan. We may not understand why, but we are to trust that God knows best, and some time we will see why God had the woman raped, the child abused, and so on.

MM: The idea that “God had” something happen is different than God commanding holy angels or permitting evil angels to cause something to happen.

This begs the question. If the reason something happens is because God so wills, then the difference vanished.

TE: An alternative theology is that God did not have the woman raped, or the child abused, or any of a million other horrors. Rather these things happen contrary to God's will, who is working tirelessly to bring these things to an end. These things happen in spite of God's will, not because of it.

MM: But this view does not explain why God allows these types of things to happen.

This is not the question under discussion. The question under discussion is whether the ends justify the means. Why God allows bad things happen to you is an important question, and one for which a topic could be opened. The point being brought up here is that an alternative theology to the Augustinian idea that nothing happens except for what God wills is that bad things happens in spite of God's will, not because of it.

Nor does it explain why God commands holy angels and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction.

This is really the same thing. It's not intended to explain this, but to offer an alternative to the idea that bad things happen because of God's will.

It seems to assume God has no say-so in the matter, that He is just as much a victim of Satan's tyranny as we are.

Your comment brings the following quote to mind:



So your right to assume that God is a victim of Satan's tyranny. Of course it's wrong to assume God suffers because He has no say-so. Certainly He could have destroyed Satan immediately when he sinned, in an attempt to cut short His own suffering. But this is not His character. He chooses to suffer Himself to make it possible for His children to be healed, not because He doesn't have a say-so, but because He does. He judges self-sacrifice to be better than the alternative, which is in harmony with His character of self-sacrificing love.