1. She did not teach baptism is a “requisite step”, a “positive condition” necessary to complete the “long, patient, protracted process of conversion”, that people can experience the miracle of rebirth without being baptized.

TE: I don't see how I can respond to this other than to say that I don't agree with your assertion that I don't think she didn't teach this.

MM: Okay, then, are you saying she did teach that baptism is a “requisite step”, a “positive condition” necessary to complete the “long, patient, protracted process of conversion”, that people cannot experience the miracle of rebirth without being baptized?

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2. When she wrote “the sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off”, before consenting to baptize someone, it excludes certain sins, namely, sinful habits which God chooses not to reveal because He believes the new convert is not quite ready to crucify them, not yet strong enough to give them up.

TE: From my perspective, it simply would not be possible for God to reveal all of our sins to us at once. I agree with Waggoner on this, who said something to the effect that "probation wouldn't be long enough to wait to confess all my sins" and that what God does is to present to us certain representative sins.

MM: Surely you recall the fact I agreed that God does not reveal the millions of individual sins we committed before we can be reborn. I agree with the idea that God reveals sinful habits, what Waggoner calls “representative sins”. For example, God reveals to us being impatient is a sinful habit we must confess and crucify before we can experience rebirth. He does not reveal to us the millions of times and different ways we were impatient.

So, with this in mind, do you agree that when Sister White wrote “the sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off”, that she meant all the “representative sins”, or what I call cultivated sinful habits, which are the result of the millions of times and different ways we sinned, must be revealed and confessed and crucified before we can experience the miracle of rebirth?

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TE: You see that certain things are wrong, and must be given up. I see things more in terms of our way of thinking is wrong, and must be changed. We need to be healed from the effects of our wrong thinking. We need to learn to think correctly, and this takes time.

MM: Actually, I believe it is when God reveals to us, in light of the cross, our sinful habits that we understand why they are wrong and must be given up. Real conversion changes the thoughts and feelings and motives, which in turn affects the way we behave. Here is how Sister White put it:

5T 82, 83
There are few really consecrated men among us, few who have fought and conquered in the battle with self. Real conversion is a decided change of feelings and motives; it is a virtual taking leave of worldly connections, a hastening from their spiritual atmosphere, a withdrawing from the controlling power of their thoughts, opinions, and influences. The separation causes pain and bitterness to both parties. It is the variance which Christ declares that He came to bring. But the converted will feel a continual longing desire that their friends shall forsake all for Christ, knowing that, unless they do, there will be a final and eternal separation. The true Christian cannot, while with unbelieving friends, be light and trifling. The value of the souls for whom Christ died is too great. {5T 82.5}

He "that forsaketh not all that he hath," says Jesus, "cannot be My disciple." Whatever shall divert the affections from God must be given up. Mammon is the idol of many. Its golden chain binds them to Satan. Reputation and worldly honor are worshiped by another class. The life of selfish ease and freedom from responsibility is the idol of others. These are Satan's snares, set for unwary feet. But these slavish bands must be broken; the flesh must be crucified with the affections and lusts. We cannot be half the Lord's and half the world's. We are not God's people unless we are such entirely. Every weight, every besetting sin, must be laid aside. {5T 83.1}

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3. The “special meetings” SDA pastors are required to have with baptismal candidates, to help them understand and experience the biblical meaning of true conversion, to teach them which “evil habits are to be given up” – that these meetings 1) do not include “plainly” showing them all of their sinful habits, 2) that the pastor must wisely overlook certain sinful habits, 3) that he should wait to address them until sometime after they are baptized.

TE: Same response as 1)

MM: Okay, then, do you agree she did say that during “special meetings” pastors are required to point out their sinful habits, that none should be purposely overlooked until after they are baptized?

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4. When she wrote “the sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away”, before consenting to baptize someone, it doesn’t include all forms of disobedience, that it wisely and purposely excludes certain sins.

TE: This isn't clear to me. (that is, what point you are trying to make isn't clear to me).

MM: Do you agree she wrote that pastors are required to teach them to “put away” the “sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience” before consenting to baptize them? And that pastors must not purposely overlook certain types of disobedience?

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5. When she wrote “a warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character”, from the moment someone is baptized, it doesn’t include “every” evil trait of character, that it excludes certain sinful habits.

TE: I think it's obvious that "every evil trait of character" means "every evil trait of character of which one is aware." That goes without saying, doesn't it? How can we fight against evil traits we have that we don't know about?

MM: Okay, you believe she did not mean “every” when she wrote “every sinful trait of character”. That’s what I thought. But, as you know, character is the result of repetitious thoughts, words, and actions. It is not the result of accident or ignorance. No one can think, say, or do the same kinds of things over and over and over again without realizing it. So, it makes sense that she meant "every" when wrote it. Else why would she say it?

TE: I think the baptismal candidates should be carefully prepared.

MM: I agree.

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MM: In light of the “special” pre-baptismal “meetings” mentioned above, do you think pastors should wisely wait to tell them the truth regarding smoking and drinking, that they should baptize them first and then address it later on?

TE: No.

MM: I agree. But what do you think the “truth” is regarding smoking and drinking? Do you agree that both are sinful habits that must be given up, that even moderate indulgences are sinful?

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TE: One is reborn when one comes to Christ. One becomes a member of the SDA church by profession of faith or baptism.

MM: Can the baptismal candidates Sister White described experience the miracle of rebirth if they refuse to be baptized and join the Remnant Church?

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TE: Let's say a person goes to a crusade, maybe a Billy Graham crusade, here's a sermon about Christ, and chooses to give His life to Jesus Christ. He prays the sinner's prayer sincerely, under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Is such a person, who gives his life to Christ, converted?

MM: Probably not. If it was his first time “hearing the word from the living preacher” what he experienced is most likely one of many “impressions” that “tend to draw the soul to Christ”. He has, though, embarked upon the long, patient, protracted process that can eventually lead him to conversion and rebirth. Genuine conversion is not “sudden”. It cannot happen as the result of hearing Billy Graham one time.

DA 172
Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

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TE: Or do you see conversion as only taking place when one becomes an SDA?

MM: No.

TE: Can any non-SDA's be saved?

MM: It depends on the timing. During the MOB crisis, during the loud cry of the latter rain, only those who embrace the mission and message of the Remnant Church will be saved. But between now and then, of course, non-SDAs can be saved.

TE: At what point do you see one to be converted? (by converted here I mean "born again")

MM: After, in light of the cross, they confess and crucify the last sinful habit there is to be revealed to them, after they have completed the long, patient, protracted process of conversion, after they consent to be baptized.

I think we're talking past each other here. You seem to have a different conception of conversion from any one I've ever met, or read, or heard of.

The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that the majority of the saved are not SDA's, yet they smoke and drink (the smoking was especially true at the time EGW wrote this), as well as drink coffee, and other sinful habits. Yet they are saved. I don't see how this can make any sense to someone who holds the ideas you do. (I'm assuming you're aware of the reference I'm referring to. If not, I could try to find it.)

MM: The baptismal candidates Sister White described cannot experience the miracle of rebirth if they refuse to be both baptized and join the Remnant Church.

Do you agree?

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TE: Let's say a person goes to a crusade, maybe a Billy Graham crusade, here's a sermon about Christ, and chooses to give His life to Jesus Christ. He prays the sinner's prayer sincerely, under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Is such a person, who gives his life to Christ, converted?

MM: Probably not. If it was his first time “hearing the word from the living preacher” what he experienced is most likely one of many “impressions” that “tend to draw the soul to Christ”. He has, though, embarked upon the long, patient, protracted process that can eventually lead him to conversion and rebirth.

Genuine conversion is not “sudden”. It cannot happen as the result of hearing Billy Graham one time.

Do you agree?

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TE: Can any non-SDA's be saved?

MM: It depends on the timing. During the MOB crisis, during the loud cry of the latter rain, only those who embrace the mission and message of the Remnant Church will be saved. But between now and then, of course, non-SDAs can be saved.

Do you agree?

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MM: In light of the “special” pre-baptismal “meetings” mentioned above, do you think pastors should wisely wait to tell them the truth regarding smoking and drinking, that they should baptize them first and then address it later on?

TE: No.

MM: I am glad that we at least agree SDA pastors should not baptize people before they give up smoking and drinking.

MM: The baptismal candidates Sister White described cannot experience the miracle of rebirth if they refuse to be both baptized and join the Remnant Church.

Do you agree?

One does not have to be an SDA to be reborn. Is this what you are suggesting?

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TE: Let's say a person goes to a crusade, maybe a Billy Graham crusade, here's a sermon about Christ, and chooses to give His life to Jesus Christ. He prays the sinner's prayer sincerely, under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Is such a person, who gives his life to Christ, converted?

MM: Probably not. If it was his first time “hearing the word from the living preacher” what he experienced is most likely one of many “impressions” that “tend to draw the soul to Christ”. He has, though, embarked upon the long, patient, protracted process that can eventually lead him to conversion and rebirth.

Genuine conversion is not “sudden”. It cannot happen as the result of hearing Billy Graham one time.

Do you agree?

It seems like you're reading a lot into a simple question. I believe many have been converted in these crusades.

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TE: Can any non-SDA's be saved?

MM: It depends on the timing. During the MOB crisis, during the loud cry of the latter rain, only those who embrace the mission and message of the Remnant Church will be saved. But between now and then, of course, non-SDAs can be saved.

Do you agree?

I'm talking about right now. Can any non-SDA's be saved right now? Specifically, can any Catholics, who drink wine at mass, base saved? Can any protestants who drink wine with supper be saved? Or who smoke occasionally, like say a cigar, to celebrate the birth of a baby? Can they be saved?

I guess we could sumarise this as us being either like God (who wishes for as many people as possible to be bound for heaven) or us being like the devil (who wishes for as few people as possible to be bound for heaven). Whos dream are we living closest to?

Another question is, what is it that enables one to be saved? That is, what is God looking for?

I believe God will take all to heaven who would be happy there, and this will no doubt include many who we, in our stupidity, would exclude. But God looks at the heart, and knows those whose principles, whose deepest thoughts, are in harmony with His, which are the principles of self-sacrificing love.

To know God is to love Him. To know God is eternal life.

Knowing God is not primarily by means having sinful habits revealed and confessed (although these can get in the way, and need to be dealt with), but primarily by means of knowing Jesus Christ. He (not sinful habits) is the way, the truth, and the life.

Basically we see what Christ is about, and we say in our soul, "That's what I want!" We make the decision that we want to be like Him, that we want to live according to the principles He taught; We love the God He portrayed, and that's the God we want to present to others, the God we want to spend eternity with.

Merry Christmas.

MM: The baptismal candidates Sister White described cannot experience the miracle of rebirth if they refuse to be both baptized and join the Remnant Church. Do you agree?

TE: One does not have to be an SDA to be reborn. Is this what you are suggesting?

MM: No. I was referring specifically to the baptismal candidates Sister White described in 6T 91, 92.

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MM: Genuine conversion is not “sudden”. It cannot happen as the result of hearing Billy Graham one time. Do you agree?

TE: I believe many have been converted in these crusades.

MM: Really? Then why does the SOP describe it as a long, patient, protracted process? I do not believe that in our day and age someone who has never heard the gospel before can complete the long, patient, protracted process of conversion by hearing Billy Graham talk about it once.

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TE: Can any non-SDA's be saved right now? Specifically, can any Catholics, who drink wine at mass, base saved? Can any protestants who drink wine with supper be saved? Or who smoke occasionally, like say a cigar, to celebrate the birth of a baby? Can they be saved?

MM: The Bible talks about “Gentiles”, people who have never heard the name of Jesus, being in the kingdom of God. Such people are not “saved” in the appointed manner, that is, the process Jesus described to Nicodemus. These kinds of exceptions are not the rule. Whether or not someone is “saved” is up to God. He is the only One who can make exceptions to the rule. If God rewards smokers or drinkers or polygamists or any other practitioner of forbidden habits with eternal life, it will be based on exceptions to the rule.

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TV: Whos dream are we living closest to?

MM: As for me and my house – We serve the Lord. Hopefully every born again believer can say the same thing. "I know whom I have believed." (2 Tim. 1:12)

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Merry Christmas

MM: Really? Then why does the SOP describe it as a long, patient, protracted process? I do not believe that in our day and age someone who has never heard the gospel before can complete the long, patient, protracted process of conversion by hearing Billy Graham talk about it once.

-The one doesnt contradict the other once we realise that it is not you, me or Billy Graham that does the heart work. We can probably safely assume that the Holy Spirit has been at work on the individuals for a long, long time, that they are just lacking once piece of the puzzle, knowledge of Jesus and when they learn that from pastor Grahams preaching, they are ready for baptism.
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TV: Whos dream are we living closest to?

MM: As for me and my house – We serve the Lord. Hopefully every born again believer can say the same thing. "I know whom I have believed." (2 Tim. 1:12)

-In my view your beliefs are inklined towards having as few people as possible in Gods kingdom.


Merry Christmas
& a good new years.

MM: The baptismal candidates Sister White described cannot experience the miracle of rebirth if they refuse to be both baptized and join the Remnant Church. Do you agree?

TE: One does not have to be an SDA to be reborn. Is this what you are suggesting?

MM: No. I was referring specifically to the baptismal candidates Sister White described in 6T 91, 92.

I don't know why you're bringing this up. I wasn't discussing SDA baptismal candidates. This whole discussion I have not been discussing them.

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MM: Genuine conversion is not “sudden”. It cannot happen as the result of hearing Billy Graham one time. Do you agree?

TE: I believe many have been converted in these crusades.

MM: Really?

Yes, really.

Then why does the SOP describe it as a long, patient, protracted process?

You make these jumps of logic, or non-logic, that have no place. There's no contradiction here. The obvious answer is that the end of the long, patient, protracted process is the Billy Graham crusade, where the person is converted.

I do not believe that in our day and age someone who has never heard the gospel before

Who said they never heard the gospel before? There's no basis for you to make the assumption that because a person is converted at a Billy Graham crusade, they never heard the gospel before, nor that there conversion was sudden.

can complete the long, patient, protracted process of conversion by hearing Billy Graham talk about it once.

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TE: Can any non-SDA's be saved right now? Specifically, can any Catholics, who drink wine at mass, base saved? Can any protestants who drink wine with supper be saved? Or who smoke occasionally, like say a cigar, to celebrate the birth of a baby? Can they be saved?

MM: The Bible talks about “Gentiles”, people who have never heard the name of Jesus, being in the kingdom of God. Such people are not “saved” in the appointed manner, that is, the process Jesus described to Nicodemus.

You are confused if you think anyone can be saved in any other manner than by being born again.

These kinds of exceptions are not the rule. Whether or not someone is “saved” is up to God. He is the only One who can make exceptions to the rule. If God rewards smokers or drinkers or polygamists or any other practitioner of forbidden habits with eternal life, it will be based on exceptions to the rule.

The rule is, whoever comes to Christ will be saved. He is the Savior all of men. The exception would be that pagans may not know who Christ was, by having read about Him in a book, or hearing about Him from some preacher. But God is God, and is not limited by such things, and is able to use the Holy Spirit to convert by other means.

However, this is all irrelevant to our conversation. I wasn't talking about Gentiles who were not familiar with the Scriptures, but Christians who have accepted Christ as their personal Savior, and accept the teachings of Scripture, as best they understand it.

Many of these Christians drink moderately. This is not to defend drinking, but to point out to you that your idea that someone who takes a drink now and again cannot be saved is not Scriptural, nor is it common sense.

Also, when you open exceptions, you show that your original statement that for one to be born again, or converted, God must reveal every sinful habit cultivated since birth, and these must all be confessed, was wrong. It's only a question of by how much it is wrong.

So let's start out by admitting the error; the original statement was wrong. Then we will progress to discussing details.