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Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Mountain Man] #82454
12/13/06 11:13 AM
12/13/06 11:13 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
TV: Which other groups/tribes/nations can we think about that likewise must have filled up the cup of God's wrath and indignation?

MM: Who knows? Without the Bible to inform us, we would only be guessing, right? I do not doubt that God allowed the Romans in AD 70 to fulfill His will in destroying the Jews who had filled up the cup of God's wrath and indignation. Why? Because the Bible clearly says so. Do you agree? There are several other places in the Bible where God plainly says a specific nation was destroyed because they had filled up the cup of God’s wrath. Do you agree?
Are nations sometimes destroyed without having filled up the cup of God's wrath?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: How do these events differ? [Re: vastergotland] #82464
12/13/06 04:25 PM
12/13/06 04:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
MM: Am I anti-semitic simply because I asked if God allowing the holocaust was a continuation of the Jews reaping what they sowed?

................

TV: Are nations sometimes destroyed without having filled up the cup of God's wrath?

MM: Who knows? Without the Bible to inform us, we would only be guessing, right?

..................

MM: I do not doubt that God allowed the Romans in AD 70 to fulfill His will in destroying the Jews who had filled up the cup of God's wrath and indignation. Why? Because the Bible clearly says so.

Do you agree?

MM: There are several other places in the Bible where God plainly says a specific nation was destroyed because they had filled up the cup of God’s wrath.

Do you agree?

Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Mountain Man] #82475
12/13/06 07:47 PM
12/13/06 07:47 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
MM: I do not doubt that God allowed the Romans in AD 70 to fulfill His will in destroying the Jews who had filled up the cup of God's wrath and indignation. Why? Because the Bible clearly says so.


I think it might be good to write a bit about what this means, as it is so often misunderstood. That is, people are accustomed to making God altogether such a one as themselves, so that His wrath is understood as being like ours, who in a fit of rage get angry and destroy things. God's wrath is totally different. His wrath is expressed by giving up the object of His wrath (which is also the object of His love) to the results of their choice. The cup is filled up when all that He can do to try to win His child is rejected, so that Ephriam must be left alone. The following explanation of what happened in A.D. 70 explains this well:

Quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC 35.3}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Tom] #82515
12/14/06 05:09 PM
12/14/06 05:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Thank you, Tom. I totally agree. God is longsuffering, slow to wrath, and full of mercy and tenderest compassion. He is not willing that any should be lost or perish. Not until He has done everything divinely possible to save a nation does He give it over to reap what they have sown. Then He allows invading or occupying nations to conquer them. Thus God's will is served.

Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Mountain Man] #82526
12/14/06 08:24 PM
12/14/06 08:24 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I agree with all you wrote, except the "thus God's will is served" part I would make clear that this is not His active will, but passive. That is, He would much prefer that all (whether nations or individuals) repent. It is not His will, but rater Satan's, that they be destroyed. God is not willing that any should perish.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Tom] #82581
12/15/06 03:52 PM
12/15/06 03:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Again, what does God expect will happen when He gives sinners over to Satan? when He ceases restraining the evil angels? I think it is clear what He expects will happen. And it is His will and desire for them.

Is it not His will for those who reject Jesus and despise His sacrifice, who sin beyond hope, who commit the unpardonable sin, for whom nothing more can be done to save them - to put these people out of their misery?

I cannot imagine it being God's will or desire to continue blessing them with probationary life and breath. The purpose of probation is to give sinners a second chance to get it right, to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour.

To give them life under any other circumstance would be cruel and tyrannical. Mercy requires God to put them out of their misery the moment they commit the unpardonable sin, the moment there is nothing more He can do to save them.

But God doesn't simply pull the plug on them. Instead, He gives them over to Satan, so that the onlooking universe can see how Satan deals with them. Thus, God kills two birds with one stone - 1) Hopeless sinners are put out of their misery, and 2) Satan demonstrates that his form of governing would not contribute to the happiness of the universe.

Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Mountain Man] #82584
12/15/06 04:30 PM
12/15/06 04:30 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Again, what does God expect will happen when He gives sinners over to Satan? when He ceases restraining the evil angels? I think it is clear what He expects will happen. And it is His will and desire for them.

This is bad reasoning. Because a person knows what to expect doesn't mean he wants the expected event to occur.

Is it not His will for those who reject Jesus and despise His sacrifice, who sin beyond hope, who commit the unpardonable sin, for whom nothing more can be done to save them - to put these people out of their misery?

I cannot imagine it being God's will or desire to continue blessing them with probationary life and breath.

People don't die the instant they commit the unpardonable sin.

The purpose of probation is to give sinners a second chance to get it right, to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour.

To give them life under any other circumstance would be cruel and tyrannical. Mercy requires God to put them out of their misery the moment they commit the unpardonable sin, the moment there is nothing more He can do to save them.

Again, people don't die the moment they commit the unpardonable sin. Cain is an example of this. There are many others.

But God doesn't simply pull the plug on them. Instead, He gives them over to Satan, so that the onlooking universe can see how Satan deals with them. Thus, God kills two birds with one stone - 1) Hopeless sinners are put out of their misery, and 2) Satan demonstrates that his form of governing would not contribute to the happiness of the universe.

Except that 1) doesn't necessarily, or even usually, happen.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Mountain Man] #82586
12/15/06 05:00 PM
12/15/06 05:00 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Mike, what does a blessing of God look like?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: How do these events differ? [Re: vastergotland] #82630
12/16/06 09:54 PM
12/16/06 09:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: This is bad reasoning. Because a person knows what to expect doesn't mean he wants the expected event to occur.

MM: Unless of course he is the one allowing it to happen.

TE: Again, people don't die the moment they commit the unpardonable sin. Cain is an example of this. There are many others.

MM: True. We can add millions of evil angels to your list. If God continues to bless them with life, in spite of their hopeless state, there must be a good reason. Any guesses? And in the cases of those who He does not continue to bless with life, who He commands holy angels or permits evil angels to destroy, there must be a good reason. Any guesses?

Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Mountain Man] #82631
12/16/06 09:57 PM
12/16/06 09:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TV: Mike, what does a blessing of God look like?

MM: The blessings of God come in many diffferent forms and flavors. The most obvious blessing in the gift of Jesus. Another awesome blessing is the gift of righteousness, the ability to be kind and loving and patient like Jesus.

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