1. Again, what does God expect will happen when He gives sinners over to Satan? when He ceases restraining the evil angels? I think it is clear what He expects will happen. And it is His will and desire for them.

MM: I believe this makes sense. Else why would God give them over to evil angels? Why would He give evil angels permission to punish sinners, and command holy angels to make sure the evil angels do not exceed the limits set by God, if it was not God’s will?

2. “I pointed out this is bad reasoning because that fact that someone knows what to expect doesn't mean he wants the expected event to occur.” Unless of course he is the one allowing it to happen.

MM: We both agree God allows things to happen. Of course He hates the circumstances that force Him to command or permit it to happen. But the fact He doesn’t continue to prevent it from happening is proof He wants it to happen. He wants it to happen because it makes sense to Him.

TE: Which I pointed out was bad because God allows thing to happen which aren't His will. For example, Scripture says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth. To this you respond with even worse reasoning, which is that my statement implies that God wants people to live in a state of hopeless. . . Please lay out your argument as to how my statement implies God wants those who perish to live in a state of hopelessness.

MM: I agree that God is not willing that any should perish. God wants everyone to inherit eternal life. But He also knows the majority will reject Jesus and despise His sacrifice. Under such circumstances, it is God’s will for them to be punished and to perish in the lake of fire. It is His will for them to die because He does not want them to live in a hopeless state.

When I wrote that it is God’s will for sinners to be punished or destroyed when He gives evil angels permission to do it, you responded by saying it is not God’s will that anyone perish. I apologize for jumping to conclusions. But I still believe it is what God wants when He gives evil angels permission to punish and destroy sinners. The circumstances force Him to want it.

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MM: In this case I am agreeing that God does not always allow people to die the moment they commit the unpardonable sin for reasons that make sense to Him. This does not prove that I am wrong.

TE: Yes it does. You stated: “Is it not His will for those who reject Jesus and despise His sacrifice, who sin beyond hope, who commit the unpardonable sin, for whom nothing more can be done to save them - to put these people out of their misery? I cannot imagine it being God's will or desire to continue blessing them with probationary life and breath.”

TE: This is wrong for the reason I pointed out. If it weren't incorrect (that is, if what you wrote were true), then it would follow that as soon as a person commited the unpardonable sin they would die. Do you not see this?

MM: I qualified what I posted by adding to it. I agree with you that God does not always put sinners out of their misery the instant they commit the unpardonable sin. Sometimes, as in the case of evil angels, He permits them to live in a state of hopelessness to make an important point. But I “cannot imagine it being God's will or desire to continue blessing them with probationary life and breath” once God can no longer use them to prove His point.

1. Again, what does God expect will happen when He gives sinners over to Satan? when He ceases restraining the evil angels? I think it is clear what He expects will happen. And it is His will and desire for them.

MM: I believe this makes sense. Else why would God give them over to evil angels?

Perhaps He gave them over to the evil angels for the reason He stated, which is that this is what they chose.

Why would He give evil angels permission to punish sinners, and command holy angels to make sure the evil angels do not exceed the limits set by God, if it was not God’s will?

Because this is what sinners have chosen. God does not force His will upon others.

2. “I pointed out this is bad reasoning because that fact that someone knows what to expect doesn't mean he wants the expected event to occur.” Unless of course he is the one allowing it to happen.

MM: We both agree God allows things to happen. Of course He hates the circumstances that force Him to command or permit it to happen. But the fact He doesn’t continue to prevent it from happening is proof He wants it to happen.

No, it isn't. As I pointed out, God is not willing that any should perish. But some do perish. I'm mentioned this several times now. The fact that God allows some to perish, yet this is not His will, demonstrates that your assertion is false. It in no way proves that God wants something to happen because He does not permit it.

We know from the life of Christ what God wants and doesn't want to happen. I don't know why you have this image of a God who wants things like rape, child abuse, and torture to happen.

He wants it to happen because it makes sense to Him.

He doesn't want it to happen, and I hope sometime you will perceive this.

TE: Which I pointed out was bad because God allows thing to happen which aren't His will. For example, Scripture says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth. To this you respond with even worse reasoning, which is that my statement implies that God wants people to live in a state of hopeless. . . Please lay out your argument as to how my statement implies God wants those who perish to live in a state of hopelessness.

MM: I agree that God is not willing that any should perish. God wants everyone to inherit eternal life. But He also knows the majority will reject Jesus and despise His sacrifice. Under such circumstances, it is God’s will for them to be punished and to perish in the lake of fire. It is His will for them to die because He does not want them to live in a hopeless state.

When I wrote that it is God’s will for sinners to be punished or destroyed when He gives evil angels permission to do it, you responded by saying it is not God’s will that anyone perish. I apologize for jumping to conclusions. But I still believe it is what God wants when He gives evil angels permission to punish and destroy sinners. The circumstances force Him to want it.

No, He doesn't want this. Are there circumstances which would force you to want your wife to be punished and destroyed, as opposed to repenting and being saved? When one is lost, God is distraught. He cries, "How can I give you up?" He weeps, as He did over Jerusalem. He laments.

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MM: In this case I am agreeing that God does not always allow people to die the moment they commit the unpardonable sin for reasons that make sense to Him. This does not prove that I am wrong.

TE: Yes it does. You stated: “Is it not His will for those who reject Jesus and despise His sacrifice, who sin beyond hope, who commit the unpardonable sin, for whom nothing more can be done to save them - to put these people out of their misery? I cannot imagine it being God's will or desire to continue blessing them with probationary life and breath.”

TE: This is wrong for the reason I pointed out. If it weren't incorrect (that is, if what you wrote were true), then it would follow that as soon as a person commited the unpardonable sin they would die. Do you not see this?

MM: I qualified what I posted by adding to it.

Then what you oringially wrote was wrong. Is there some reason you cannot admit when you write things that are wrong? Your qualifying is stating, "What I originally wrote was wrong. Here's why it is wrong. Here is what I should have written."

I agree with you that God does not always put sinners out of their misery the instant they commit the unpardonable sin.

Good! You recognize what you originally wrote was wrong.

Sometimes, as in the case of evil angels, He permits them to live in a state of hopelessness to make an important point.

No, God does not allow them to live to make a point. He allows them to live because Satan chooses not to kill them. Sometimes Satan chooses to bless those who reject God, in order to exert an influence upon others.

But I “cannot imagine it being God's will or desire to continue blessing them with probationary life and breath” once God can no longer use them to prove His point.

Do you even believe there is such a thing as evil? You seem to conceive of everything that happens as happening because this is what God has ordained, what God wants, what God plans. If this is the case, how can anything be evil?

1. Again, what does God expect will happen when He gives sinners over to Satan? when He ceases restraining the evil angels? I think it is clear what He expects will happen. And it is His will and desire for them.

TE: Perhaps He gave them over to the evil angels for the reason He stated, which is that this is what they chose.

MM: By this do you mean God did not expect the evil angels to punish or destroy them?

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MM: We both agree God allows things to happen. Of course He hates the circumstances that force Him to command or permit it to happen. But the fact He doesn’t continue to prevent it from happening is proof He wants it to happen. He wants it to happen because it makes sense to Him.

TE: We know from the life of Christ what God wants and doesn't want to happen. I don't know why you have this image of a God who wants things like rape, child abuse, and torture to happen.

MM: I was referring to the following inspired insight:

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Rape, child abuse, and torture are different issues, dealing with different dynamics. But the principles are similar. It begs the question, the age old complaint – If there is a God, and if He is so loving, so almighty, why doesn’t He prevent such horrible things from happening? In light of GC 614, how do we answer? In light of Revelation 15 and 16, how do we answer?

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TE: Are there circumstances which would force you to want your wife to be punished and destroyed, as opposed to repenting and being saved? When one is lost, God is distraught. He cries, "How can I give you up?" He weeps, as He did over Jerusalem. He laments.

MM: I am not speaking in generalities. I have been addressing specific cases, the ones named in GC 614, cases involving people who were incapable of repenting and being saved. What God did under these specific circumstances is clearly explained in the Bible and the SOP. Sometimes He commanded holy angels to destroy them. Which is exactly what He wanted them to do. Again, pardon was not an option. What God wants when pardon is not an option is different than when it is.

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TE: No, God does not allow them to live to make a point. He allows them to live because Satan chooses not to kill them. Sometimes Satan chooses to bless those who reject God, in order to exert an influence upon others.

MM: Can evil angels kill themselves? Can one evil angel kill another? Since we cannot answer these questions, how can you insist that God does not allow evil angels to live in a hopeless state in order to make a point?

The idea that Satan sometimes chooses not to destroy the sinners God gives him permission to destroy is an interesting point to ponder. Do you have any evidence that this has happened? Any specific instances that you can cite?

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The following sentences are taken from GC 589 paragraph 2:

1. “Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows.”

MM: Again, God controls what Satan can and cannot do. Satan is not free to do as he pleases.

2. “When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer.”

MM: In other words, it was God who allowed Satan to trouble and afflict Job.

3. “But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same.”

MM: This is referring to the close of probation. God has not yet given Satan global control of the world.

4. “Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.”

MM: This insight seems to suggest that there were times after God gave sinners over to Satan that he chose not to destroy them right away.

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TE: Do you even believe there is such a thing as evil? You seem to conceive of everything that happens as happening because this is what God has ordained, what God wants, what God plans. If this is the case, how can anything be evil?

MM: Nothing that God commands holy angels or permits evil angels to do is evil. The circumstances that force God to command or permit things to happen are evil.

1.When a person chooses to absolutely have nothing to do with God, and God gives them over to the result of their choice, God expects that Satan will treat them in a way which will further his (Satan's) kingdom. I don't understand why you keep asking this question. It doesn't help establish anything.

2."But the fact He doesn’t continue to prevent it from happening is proof He wants it to happen. He wants it to happen because it makes sense to Him."

This statement is wrong. I gave a counterexample which shows it is wrong. For you to present some example where it is correct (I'm not agreeing with your example, just explaining the poor logic) does not rebut my statement.

I hope you can understand this, and recognize that what you wrote was incorrect.

Regarding your question as to how we answer the question, how does a loving God permit bad things to happen, in the light of GC 614 and Rev. 15, the answer is two-fold:

a.God's will is revealed in Jesus Christ. That He allows certain things to happen, does not demonstrate that these things are His will. Jesus repeatedly made this point.

b.God is often presented as doing that which He permits. This does not imply that God wants these things to happen. Again, point a applies: God's will is revealed in Jesus Christ.

3.You suggest that what God wants when pardon is not an option is different than when it is. This is incorrect. God is not fickle. He doesn't change. People change, by hardening their hearts, but His desire is unchangeable, which is the well-being of all His children. His desire is thwarted by His rebellious children.

Let's say you have a child who is hooked on drugs. Even if it should come to the point to where the child can no longer be saved from drugs, you would still want your child to be well. The fact that he made an irrevocable choice would not change things so that you now want him to be destroyed and punished (at least, not if you're a normal parent). What has changed is his capacity to be healed.

4.Regarding the question as to how I can insist that God does not allow the evil angels to exist to make a point, the answer is because I know God's character. For God to allow sin to exist to make a point would be callous, to say the least.

Regarding references, there's a well know statement from GC which speaks of how Satan at times blesses those who are his agents, which I guess you know of, since you cited it. So why are you asking me to provide a reference you aleady know?

5.You repeatedly made the point that Satan cannot act beyond what God permits, which is, of course, self-evident. There's no reason to make this point. Everybody knows and agrees with it.

6.The statement about evil angels doing nothing evil is one of the most amazing things I've read.

TE: … how does a loving God permit bad things to happen, in the light of GC 614 and Rev. 15, the answer is two-fold:

a.God's will is revealed in Jesus Christ. That He allows certain things to happen, does not demonstrate that these things are His will. Jesus repeatedly made this point.

b.God is often presented as doing that which He permits. This does not imply that God wants these things to happen. Again, point a applies: God's will is revealed in Jesus Christ.

MM: Tom, as you know, I am having a hard time grasping this idea. So, are you saying when God commands holy angels to cause death and destruction it is not His will or what He wants? If so, then why did He command them to do it?

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TE: Regarding the question as to how I can insist that God does not allow the evil angels to exist to make a point, the answer is because I know God's character. For God to allow sin to exist to make a point would be callous, to say the least.

MM: The following inspired insight disagrees:

GC 498, 499
Even when it was decided that he could no longer remain in heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question. {GC 498.3}

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TE: The statement about evil angels doing nothing evil is one of the most amazing things I've read.

MM: Wow! You’re right, that sounds amazing. Please post it here. Thank you.

TE: … how does a loving God permit bad things to happen, in the light of GC 614 and Rev. 15, the answer is two-fold:

a.God's will is revealed in Jesus Christ. That He allows certain things to happen, does not demonstrate that these things are His will. Jesus repeatedly made this point.

b.God is often presented as doing that which He permits. This does not imply that God wants these things to happen. Again, point a applies: God's will is revealed in Jesus Christ.

MM: Tom, as you know, I am having a hard time grasping this idea. So, are you saying when God commands holy angels to cause death and destruction it is not His will or what He wants? If so, then why did He command them to do it?

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TE: Regarding the question as to how I can insist that God does not allow the evil angels to exist to make a point, the answer is because I know God's character. For God to allow sin to exist to make a point would be callous, to say the least.

MM: The following inspired insight disagrees:

GC 498, 499
Even when it was decided that he could no longer remain in heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question. {GC 498.3}

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TE: The statement about evil angels doing nothing evil is one of the most amazing things I've read.

MM: Wow! You’re right, that sounds amazing. Please post it here. Thank you.

1. I'm sorry you're having a difficult time grasping the concept. I'll try explaining it another way.

When Jesus said the words He said were what He heard from His Father, and what He did was what He saw His Father doing, He was referring to the Old Testament, the only Scripture of the time, because that is where He learned of His Father. So what Jesus said and did was what He understood God to be like. He was saying, in effect, "This is my vision of God." Or, "If you want to know what I think the God of the Old Testament is like, look at Me."

2.You've misunderstood the statement you quoted, if you think think it is saying that the reason God allowed sin to continue was to He could make a point. God allowed sin to continue because it is the only way that the truth could be revealed about the nature of sin, and the only way that the doubts regarding God's character could be clarified. Allowing sin to continue was the only way to bring it to an end.

3."Nothing that God commands holy angels or permits evil angels to do is evil." Taking away the holy angels part, this becomes, "Nothing that God permits evil angels to do is evil." You're right that this is amazing, and your "Wow!" doesn't even come close to expressing it.

MM: Tom, as you know, I am having a hard time grasping this idea. So, are you saying when God commands holy angels to cause death and destruction it is not His will or what He wants? If so, then why did He command them to do it?

TE: He was saying, in effect, "This is my vision of God." Or, "If you want to know what I think the God of the Old Testament is like, look at Me."

MM: Okay, but I still don’t understand what you believe about why commanded holy angels to cause death and destruction.

TE: God allowed sin to continue because it is the only way that the truth could be revealed about the nature of sin, and the only way that the doubts regarding God's character could be clarified.

MM: I agree. That’s why God chooses to allow hopeless sinners to live - to demonstrate the truth about sin and sinning. He could not make this point without allowing the evil angels to live.

TE: "Nothing that God commands holy angels or permits evil angels to do is evil." Taking away the holy angels part, this becomes, "Nothing that God permits evil angels to do is evil." You're right that this is amazing, and your "Wow!" doesn't even come close to expressing it.

MM: It sounds like you agree that it is not evil when God commands holy angels to cause death and destruction. Do I understand your view correctly?

MM: Tom, as you know, I am having a hard time grasping this idea. So, are you saying when God commands holy angels to cause death and destruction it is not His will or what He wants? If so, then why did He command them to do it?

TE: He was saying, in effect, "This is my vision of God." Or, "If you want to know what I think the God of the Old Testament is like, look at Me."

MM: Okay, but I still don’t understand what you believe about why commanded holy angels to cause death and destruction.

If you wish to discuss this, we can do so on the topic which was established for this purpose.

TE: God allowed sin to continue because it is the only way that the truth could be revealed about the nature of sin, and the only way that the doubts regarding God's character could be clarified.

MM: I agree. That’s why God chooses to allow hopeless sinners to live - to demonstrate the truth about sin and sinning. He could not make this point without allowing the evil angels to live.

I think you are having difficulty understanding the implications of the language which you use. When one says that God allowed sin to continue to "make a point," the implications are different than what you are suggesting here. The phrase, "to make a point" has a distinct implication to it, which, as a native English speaker, you should be aware of. If you don't understand this, I don't think I can communicate it to you, so we'll have to let this go.

TE: "Nothing that God commands holy angels or permits evil angels to do is evil." Taking away the holy angels part, this becomes, "Nothing that God permits evil angels to do is evil." You're right that this is amazing, and your "Wow!" doesn't even come close to expressing it.

MM: It sounds like you agree that it is not evil when God commands holy angels to cause death and destruction. Do I understand your view correctly?

No, you didn't understand my point. My point is that your statement that "Nothing that God permits evil angels to do is evil" is an amazing statement.

The nation of Israel filled up the cup of God's wrath when she sealed her rejection of Jesus in AD 34. The outpouring of God's wrath has been manifested in different ways since then. The destruction of Jews and Jerusalem in AD 70 was one of the ways Israel reaped what she ahd sown. The nation of Israel is under "a perpetual curse". And for more than "eighteen hundred years" now she has been reaping the wrath of God.

The point God is making is clear - rejecting Jesus yields dire consequences.

3T 380
God's patience will not always wait for you, poor, trifling souls. He who holds our destinies in His hands will not always be trifled with. Jesus declares to us that there is a greater sin than that which caused the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. . . . It is the sin of those who see Jesus in the wilderness of temptation, bowed down as with mortal agony because of the sins of the world, and yet are not moved to thorough repentance. . . {3T 380.1}

COL 295, 296
Christ would have averted the doom of the Jewish nation if the people had received Him. But envy and jealousy made them implacable. They determined that they would not receive Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. They rejected the Light of the world, and thenceforth their lives were surrounded with darkness as the darkness of midnight. The doom foretold came upon the Jewish nation. Their own fierce passions, uncontrolled, wrought their ruin. In their blind rage they destroyed one another. Their rebellious, stubborn pride brought upon them the wrath of their Roman conquerors. Jerusalem was destroyed, the temple laid in ruins, and its site plowed like a field. The children of Judah perished by the most horrible forms of death. Millions were sold, to serve as bondmen in heathen lands. {COL 295.3}

DA 739
Looking upon the smitten Lamb of God, the Jews had cried, "His blood be on us, and on our children." That awful cry ascended to the throne of God. That sentence, pronounced upon themselves, was written in heaven. That prayer was heard. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a perpetual curse. {DA 739.1}

Terribly was it realized in the destruction of Jerusalem. Terribly has it been manifested in the condition of the Jewish nation for eighteen hundred years,--a branch severed from the vine, a dead, fruitless branch, to be gathered up and burned. From land to land throughout the world, from century to century, dead, dead in trespasses and sins! {DA 739.2}

"In what way do you think the holocaust is different than the destruction of Jews in AD 70?"

Both times they were hated and hunted down. Why? Because as a race they were despised. There seems to be no ohter reason. "The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a perpetual curse."