TE: This is bad reasoning. Because a person knows what to expect doesn't mean he wants the expected event to occur.

MM: Unless of course he is the one allowing it to happen.

Your conclusion still doesn't follow. God does not allow bad things to happen because He wants them to. This is a bad conclusion, and misrepresents God's character. For example, God is not willing that any should perish, but He allows people to perish. The fact that people perish does not mean that God wants them to.

TE: Again, people don't die the moment they commit the unpardonable sin. Cain is an example of this. There are many others.

MM: True. We can add millions of evil angels to your list. If God continues to bless them with life, in spite of their hopeless state, there must be a good reason. Any guesses? And in the cases of those who He does not continue to bless with life, who He commands holy angels or permits evil angels to destroy, there must be a good reason. Any guesses?

Let's start with acknowleding that what you said before was wrong. "True" means, "You are correct. I was wrong."

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Gal. 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4}
As the seed sown produces a harvest, and this in turn is sown, the harvest is multiplied. In our relation to others, this law holds true. Every act, every word, is a seed that will bear fruit. Every deed of thoughtful kindness, of obedience, or of self-denial, will reproduce itself in others, and through them in still others. So every act of envy, malice, or dissension is a seed that will spring up in a "root of bitterness" (Heb. 12:15), whereby many shall be defiled. And how much larger number will the "many" poison. Thus the sowing of good and evil goes on for time and for eternity.

The wrath of God is when God has to let people go to their own destruction. Romans 1 explains
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed [it] unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Romans tells us the wrath of God is when 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

It is a sad fact that God has to let people have their own way and thus by their own choices ignore the wonderful life God is offering.

Terry

Amen! It is sad when people choose to ignore the wonderful life God is offering.

The other side of the coin is that we can respond positively, in which case the law of sowing and reaping works to a positive end instead of to a negative one, like the one grain of corn being given which springs into many more.

Here is an email making its way through cyberspace:

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT DEATH

Death is certain, but the Bible speaks about untimely death! Make a personal reflection about this. Very interesting, read until the end.

It is written in the Bible (Galatians 6:7): "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."! Here are some men and women who mocked God:

JOHN LENNON: Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine, he said: "Christianity will end, it will disappear. I do not have to argue about that. I am certain. Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple, today we are more famous than Him" (1966). Lennon, after saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, was shot six times.

TANCREDO NEVES (President of Brazil): During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency. Sure he got the votes, but he got sick a day before being made President, then he died.

CAZUZA (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet): During a show in Caneci ( Rio de Janeiro), whilst smoking his cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into the air and said: "God, that's for you." He died at the age of 32 of AIDS in a horrible manner.

THE MAN WHO BUILT THE TITANIC: After the construction of the Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be. With an ironic tone he said: "Not even God can sink it" The result: I think you all know what happened to the Titanic.

MARILYN MONROE: She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show. He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her. After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said: "I don't need your Jesus". A week later, she was found dead in her apartment.

BON SCOTT: The ex-vocalist of the AC/DC. On one of his 1979 songs he sang: "Don't stop me, I'm going down all the way, down the highway to hell". On the 19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he had been choked by his own vomit.

CAMPINAS/SP IN 2005: In Campinas, Brazil a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a friend. The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about the runkenness of her friends and she said to the daughter - holding her hand, who was already seated in the car: "My Daughter, go with God and may He protect you." She responded, "Only if He travels in the trunk, cause inside here it’s already full.” Hours later, news came by that they had been involved in a fatal accident, everyone had died, the car could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the trunk was intact. The police said there was no way the trunk could have remained intact. To their surprise, inside the trunk was a crate of eggs, none were broken.

CHRISTINE HEWITT: A Jamaican Journalist and entertainer, said the Bible (Word of God) was the worst book ever written, in June 2006 she was found burnt beyond recognition in her motor vehicle.

Many more important people have forgotten that there is no other name that was given so much authority as the name of Jesus. Many have died, but only Jesus died and rose gain, and he is still alive.

TE: God does not allow bad things to happen because He wants them to. This is a bad conclusion, and misrepresents God's character. For example, God is not willing that any should perish, but He allows people to perish. The fact that people perish does not mean that God wants them to.

MM: Your argument implies that God wants them to live forever in a state of hopelessness. He denied people access to the tree of life because He wanted them to die. Why? Because death is a blessing in disguise.

………………………

TE: Again, people don't die the moment they commit the unpardonable sin. Cain is an example of this. There are many others.

MM: True. We can add millions of evil angels to your list. If God continues to bless them with life, in spite of their hopeless state, there must be a good reason. Any guesses? And in the cases of those who He does not continue to bless with life, who He commands holy angels or permits evil angels to destroy, there must be a good reason. Any guesses?

TE: Let's start with acknowleding that what you said before was wrong. "True" means, "You are correct. I was wrong."

MM: In this case I am agreeing that God does not always allow people to die the moment they commit the unpardonable sin for reasons that make sense to Him. This does not prove that I am wrong. It proves that God does not waste an opportunity to teach important truths.

2 Peter
3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Terry: The wrath of God is when God has to let people go to their own destruction.

MM: How does the following inspired insight fit into your view of things?

GC 614
A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Amen! It is sad when people choose to ignore the wonderful life God is offering.

The other side of the coin is that we can respond positively, in which case the law of sowing and reaping works to a positive end instead of to a negative one, like the one grain of corn being given which springs into many more.

TE: God does not allow bad things to happen because He wants them to. This is a bad conclusion, and misrepresents God's character. For example, God is not willing that any should perish, but He allows people to perish. The fact that people perish does not mean that God wants them to.

MM: Your argument implies that God wants them to live forever in a state of hopelessness.

Your first conclusion was bad, which was:



I pointed out this is bad reasoning because that fact that someone knows what to expect doesn't mean he wants the expected event to occur.

You responded to this with continued bad reasoning:



Which I pointed out was bad because God allows thing to happen which aren't His will. For example, Scripture says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of the truth. To this you respond with even worse reasoning, which is that my statement implies that God wants people to live in a state of hopeless.

Can you really not see bad logic you are applying here? All three of your statements are wrong. The first two are wrong for the reasons I pointed out. The last one is wrong because your conclusion doesn't follow from what I wrote.

You didn't make any argument, just a statement, with no reasoning, so whatever logic you were applying was silent. Please lay out your argument as to how my statement implies God wants those who perish to live in a state of hopelessness. Also please recognize that your first two statements were wrong.

TE: Again, people don't die the moment they commit the unpardonable sin. Cain is an example of this. There are many others.

MM: True. We can add millions of evil angels to your list. If God continues to bless them with life, in spite of their hopeless state, there must be a good reason. Any guesses? And in the cases of those who He does not continue to bless with life, who He commands holy angels or permits evil angels to destroy, there must be a good reason. Any guesses?

TE: Let's start with acknowleding that what you said before was wrong. "True" means, "You are correct. I was wrong."

MM: In this case I am agreeing that God does not always allow people to die the moment they commit the unpardonable sin for reasons that make sense to Him. This does not prove that I am wrong.

Yes it does. You stated:



This is wrong for the reason I pointed out. If it weren't incorrect (that is, if what you wrote were true), then it would follow that as soon as a person commited the unpardonable sin they would die. Do you not see this?