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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: vastergotland]
#83048
12/25/06 05:11 PM
12/25/06 05:11 PM
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SDA
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Thomas, can we apply sinning to this principle? I don't think so. In other words, if sinning is the means then it can never justify the end.
But the following insight can only apply to God:
"God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored."
In such cases, that is, when God uses His enemies to punish sinners, the means justifies the end. There is nothing immoral about it. For example, when God used the evil angels to influence the Jews and the Romans to kill one another in AD 70 there was nothing immoral about what God did.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#83056
12/26/06 01:40 PM
12/26/06 01:40 PM
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If God did such a thing, if...
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: vastergotland]
#83094
12/28/06 02:53 PM
12/28/06 02:53 PM
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If?
Oh, that's right, you believe such things are the result of FMAs choosing to be evil, that God chooses not to interfere.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#83100
12/28/06 03:53 PM
12/28/06 03:53 PM
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Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: vastergotland]
#83106
12/28/06 04:33 PM
12/28/06 04:33 PM
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OP
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Posts: 14,795
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FMA = Free moral agent. (it's an MM invention)
MM, if you argue that the means are not immoral, then your statement that the ends justify the means is pointless. If the means are fine, there is nothing to justify.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Tom]
#83118
12/28/06 07:17 PM
12/28/06 07:17 PM
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In such case Mikes last post is right. An FMA would not be neither free nor moral if in choosing to be evil, God would interfere, neither if God would interfere in the FMA choosing to be good.
Both free and moral require a real, practical option of being good or evil, a real and practical ability to choose to walk to the left, or to the right, or straight forward, or backward, or not at all.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: vastergotland]
#83143
12/29/06 02:58 PM
12/29/06 02:58 PM
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TE: MM, if you argue that the means are not immoral, then your statement that the ends justify the means is pointless. If the means are fine, there is nothing to justify. MM: It's not any different than any other oxymoron. The Bible refers to God’s “strange act” (Isa. 28:21). What is so “strange” about it? Why call it “strange” if God is the one doing it? Everything God does is holy and righteous, right? So, why call it a “strange act” when He rises up and unleashes His wrath and righteous indignation upon a nation of sinners who reject Jesus and despise His sacrifice? Indeed, why not call it a “strange act”? Our heavenly Father does not delight in circumstances that force Him to mete out vengeance, to execute judgment upon sinners. But He is forced to do it. Why? To preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some God must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. PP 628
The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21.
To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7.
While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3.
By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#83144
12/29/06 03:08 PM
12/29/06 03:08 PM
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TV: An FMA would not be neither free nor moral if in choosing to be evil, God would interfere, neither if God would interfere in the FMA choosing to be good.
MM: God does not interfere in the decision making process, but He does interfere, when it serves His purpose, in the outcome of the decision. FMAs (humans and evil angels) are free to think and choose, but the outcome is up to God. They manage the choices, but God manages the consequences.
The stories of Balaam and Cyrus illustrate this insight nicely.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#83153
12/29/06 08:37 PM
12/29/06 08:37 PM
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To state this in a way you feel familiar with Mike, Balaam and Cyrus are the exceptions to the rule.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: vastergotland]
#83189
12/30/06 04:34 AM
12/30/06 04:34 AM
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OP
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MM, you've kind of gone off an another topic. Getting back to the ends justifying the means, if the means are not immoral, then there is no need for justification. Perhaps what you really meant was not "the ends justify the means" but "the means may appear to be bad, but they really aren't." This seems to be more along the lines of what you really think.
I think you misspoke when you wrote, "The ends justifies the means," as you don't really seem to believe this.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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