TV: The one doesnt contradict the other once we realise that it is not you, me or Billy Graham that does the heart work. We can probably safely assume that the Holy Spirit has been at work on the individuals for a long, long time, that they are just lacking once piece of the puzzle, knowledge of Jesus and when they learn that from pastor Grahams preaching, they are ready for baptism.

MM: Thomas, I see a difference between what you posted above and what Sister White wrote below. The difference is you put Jesus last and she puts Jesus first.

DA 172
By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

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TV: In my view your beliefs are inklined towards having as few people as possible in Gods kingdom.

MM: I’m not sure what “inklined” means, but it doesn’t sound good. Jesus Himself expressed it this way – “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.” (Mat. 20:16) In spite of the millions who claim to be a Christian - rebirth is rare. Most are not converted.

We must, each for himself, choose Christ, because He has first chosen us. This union with Christ is to be formed by those who are naturally at enmity with Him. It is a relation of utter dependence, to be entered into by a proud heart.

This is close work, and many who profess to be followers of Christ know nothing of it. They nominally accept the Saviour, but not as the sole ruler of their hearts.

Some feel their need of the atonement, and with the recognition of this need, and the desire for a change of heart, a struggle begins. To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen objects of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back.

Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.

As the dry and apparently lifeless branch is grafted into the living tree, so may we become living branches of the True Vine. And the fruit which was borne by Christ will be borne by all His followers.

After this union is formed, it can be preserved only by continual, earnest, painstaking effort. Christ exercises His power to preserve and guard this sacred tie, and the dependent, helpless sinner must act his part with untiring energy, or Satan by his cruel, cunning power will separate him from Christ.

TE: I don't know why you're bringing this up. I wasn't discussing SDA baptismal candidates. This whole discussion I have not been discussing them.

MM: Let me know when you're ready to discuss it. Thank you.

TV: The one doesnt contradict the other once we realise that it is not you, me or Billy Graham that does the heart work. We can probably safely assume that the Holy Spirit has been at work on the individuals for a long, long time, that they are just lacking once piece of the puzzle, knowledge of Jesus and when they learn that from pastor Grahams preaching, they are ready for baptism.

MM: Thomas, I see a difference between what you posted above and what Sister White wrote below. The difference is you put Jesus last and she puts Jesus first.

-I think the difference is a lot lesser than you might think. I started with the unseen agency just like Ellen did, and while she speaks about a person who is drawn to Christ from within a church or through a church, my example is conserning one who has no scripture, or pastors preaching and thus no knowledge to meditate upon. Her example conserns the kind of people she was likely to meet in America and Australia and Europe 200 years ago. Not so today. A person who would fit the description made today either is a christian, on the road of becoming a christian or a former christian. The majority of the population, at least in Europe, is neither of the above and doesnt fit into Ellens description at all.

DA 172
By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

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TV: In my view your beliefs are inklined towards having as few people as possible in Gods kingdom.

MM: I’m not sure what “inklined” means, but it doesn’t sound good. Jesus Himself expressed it this way – “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.” (Mat. 20:16) In spite of the millions who claim to be a Christian - rebirth is rare. Most are not converted.

We must, each for himself, choose Christ, because He has first chosen us. This union with Christ is to be formed by those who are naturally at enmity with Him. It is a relation of utter dependence, to be entered into by a proud heart.

This is close work, and many who profess to be followers of Christ know nothing of it. They nominally accept the Saviour, but not as the sole ruler of their hearts.

Some feel their need of the atonement, and with the recognition of this need, and the desire for a change of heart, a struggle begins. To renounce their own will, perhaps their chosen objects of affection or pursuit, requires an effort, at which many hesitate and falter and turn back.

Yet this battle must be fought by every heart that is truly converted. We must war against temptations without and within. We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.

As the dry and apparently lifeless branch is grafted into the living tree, so may we become living branches of the True Vine. And the fruit which was borne by Christ will be borne by all His followers.

After this union is formed, it can be preserved only by continual, earnest, painstaking effort. Christ exercises His power to preserve and guard this sacred tie, and the dependent, helpless sinner must act his part with untiring energy, or Satan by his cruel, cunning power will separate him from Christ.

-Most of the above I agree with. With the addition that it is not for you or me to prune this wine(Jesus) that we are grafted into. It is not for us to say, he is truly converted, she is not truly converted, he is not truly converted, she is..... In the bible, we can find characteristics that identify true converted christians, but these are not of the kind which help us identify others as converted or not. They are of the kind which are only good for self evaluation. How can we judge if another is charitable, patient or the level of Godliness of another? Can we in another understand the level of love, peace, longsuffering, faith or meekness? These are the signs of a converted heart, these rather than outward acts of doing this or doing that.

And no, we have assurance that satan cannot separate a single soul from Gods embrace. Not even one.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus said, "My burden is easy, my burden is light." We do a misservice to God's character if we make things appear otherwise. It's much easier to choose Christ than to choose against Him. Here's something from the Spirit of Prophecy:



I love this quote! Notice particularly the emphasized part, that the love of God makes it difficult for the headless and headstrong to destroy themselves. As one who is by nature heedless and headstrong, I am so thankful for this!

We should always remember that the gospel is good news!

From the same book, we read that God has made provision whereby He will make all like Jesus (which is how EGW defines perfection), and that He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will.

It is by love that God attracts us to His service. To know God is to love Him. When we know the love of God, then He can win our hearts. Winning our hearts is His key to success. Being free moral agents, it is of course true that we must choose to give Him our hearts (even this we can't do without His help), but once He has our heart, then the rest will follow.

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you." The kingdom of God is within us. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. We need to be changed from within.

MM: Thomas, I see a difference between what you posted above and what Sister White wrote below. The difference is you put Jesus last and she puts Jesus first.

TV: I think the difference is a lot lesser than you might think.

MM: And yet you go on to explain in detail why and how your description and her description are so different?

TV: … my example is conserning one who has no scripture, or pastors preaching and thus no knowledge to meditate upon.

MM: And you think this person could acknowledge and accept Jesus as his personal Saviour, experience the miracle of rebirth, and get baptized – all this after hearing one sermon preached by someone like Billy Graham?

………………..

TV: In my view your beliefs are inklined towards having as few people as possible in Gods kingdom.

MM: I’m not sure what “inklined” means, but it doesn’t sound good. Jesus Himself expressed it this way – “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.” (Mat. 20:16) In spite of the millions who claim to be a Christian - rebirth is rare. Most are not converted.

TV: Most of the above I agree with.

MM: Are my beliefs still “inklined” towards having as few people as possible rewarded with eternal life when Jesus returns?

TE: We do a misservice to God's character if we make things appear otherwise. It's much easier to choose Christ than to choose against Him.

MM: I disagree. And the following testimonies confirm it. They teach that it is not easy to be saved, that it is hard to fight the good fight of faith.

[quote=Mountain Man]MM: Thomas, I see a difference between what you posted above and what Sister White wrote below. The difference is you put Jesus last and she puts Jesus first.

TV: I think the difference is a lot lesser than you might think.

MM: And yet you go on to explain in detail why and how your description and her description are so different?

-Well, what I mean is probably that during the same sircumstances, there would not have been any significant differences.

TV: … my example is conserning one who has no scripture, or pastors preaching and thus no knowledge to meditate upon.

MM: And you think this person could acknowledge and accept Jesus as his personal Saviour, experience the miracle of rebirth, and get baptized – all this after hearing one sermon preached by someone like Billy Graham?

-Billy Grahams crusades usually are longer than one sermon. Doesnt he preach something like 3 sermons a day for a week or even two during these events? But yes, I do believe a person can acknowledge and accept Jesus as his personal Saviour from taking part in such an event. The reason for this is that I see this as the first step on a long journey with God, rather than the end when one has straightened out all the questionmarks and purged all the sins.
………………..

TV: In my view your beliefs are inklined towards having as few people as possible in Gods kingdom.

MM: I’m not sure what “inklined” means, but it doesn’t sound good. Jesus Himself expressed it this way – “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.” (Mat. 20:16) In spite of the millions who claim to be a Christian - rebirth is rare. Most are not converted.

TV: Most of the above I agree with.

MM: Are my beliefs still “inklined” towards having as few people as possible rewarded with eternal life when Jesus returns?

-You didnt comment on what I wrote. After you have done so, we can return to this question.

MM, she wrote, "God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves." This is very clear. It's hard to be lost!

She wrote, "(D)o not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way."

What I wrote is that it's easier to choose for Christ than against Him. I'm sorry you do not seem to understand and appreciate this truth. I should think you would, as anyone who has experience trying both ways should. At any rate, the statements you provided do not disagree with the statements I provided (which they shouldn't, being from the same author). Rather, they simply say (the ones you provided) that perfection of character is not easy. However, in the other statements I provided she did not say that it was easy to follow Christ, but easier than the alternative, so she didn't contradict herself.

MM, a point that seems to be eluding you regarding the Billy Graham sermons is that these are not the first time God is working with the individual. This is the point of the EGW quote you cited.



In this statement the "word from the living preacher" is the sermon from the Billy Graham crusade. "Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus." This is the Holy Spirit working through the word of the living preacher, making the appeal.

I have no idea why you would leap to the conclusion that the Billy Graham crusade would be the first thing God was doint to reach the converted soul. All along God has been doing the things outlined in the DA quote.

TV: But yes, I do believe a person can acknowledge and accept Jesus as his personal Saviour from taking part in such an event. The reason for this is that I see this as the first step on a long journey with God, rather than the end when one has straightened out all the questionmarks and purged all the sins.

MM: Thank you for clarifying what you believe. It seems to me that most people believe confessing and forsaking our cultivated sinful habits is the work of lifetime, that is, it takes a lifetime to discover and overcome the sinful habits and practices we cultivate or commit regularly. In the meantime, before we realize it, we are supposedly ignorant of our faults and imperfections; we go on from day to day offending people around us without realizing we are being unchristlike. I totally disagree with this version of rebirth.

……………………………

MM: Are my beliefs still “inklined” towards having as few people as possible rewarded with eternal life when Jesus returns?

TV: You didnt comment on what I wrote. After you have done so, we can return to this question.



MM: We can discern the fruits of the Spirit in Christians or the lack thereof. But we are not supposed to judge their motives, that is, we cannot discern why they do the things they do or don’t do. “By their fruits ye shall know them.” Paul put it this way:

1 Corinthians
5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2 Thessalonians
3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
3:15 Yet count [him] not as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother.

And Jesus taught us how to deal with open sinners. He put it this way:

Matthew
18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

So, while we are not to judge motives, we can and must be our brother’s keeper. If we see a brother or sister walking in darkness and sin, it is our solemn duty to warn them off Satan’s enchanted ground, to encourage them to walk in light, even as Jesus is in the light. And if they refuse to heed counsel, then we are counseled to keep no company with them.