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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#83354
01/02/07 04:41 PM
01/02/07 04:41 PM
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SDA
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Tom, are you willing to make the same argument against holy angels when God commands them to cause death and destruction? Sister White wrote that holy angels and evil angels exercise the “same” destructive power when God ordains it.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#83374
01/02/07 06:52 PM
01/02/07 06:52 PM
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OP
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Your question doesn't make sense to me. That same argument as what?
The topic of this thread is whether the end justifies the means. I do not believe that it does. I do not believe holy angels ever do anything which is immoral (i.e. contrary to God's law), nor do I believe that God commands them to do anything which is either contrary to His law or to His own character as revealed in Jesus Christ.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#83393
01/02/07 11:20 PM
01/02/07 11:20 PM
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Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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JB: According to your view, this is all just a phase of God's game.
MM: John, please define what you think I meant in the context of what I wrote - "Again, I believe He leaves nothing to choice or chance." Thank you. Well now, according to all that you have written on this thread and other lately; we are all waiting for you to define/explain yourself. The points in question: Is God running a "program" for sin and its progression; or is God aware of the nature of sin and its course and hence wanting to save us from it? Is everybody doing what God wants accomplished; or is there a war and there are two sides; a conflict?
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: John Boskovic]
#83394
01/03/07 12:13 AM
01/03/07 12:13 AM
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Or it may be simpler to think on a personal basis.
Simply put:
Is your salvation affected by your choice, or God leaves nothing to your choice.
The issue of the great Controversy is after all a personal matter. You are one part of it, and God deals with each one of us individually.
What happens to one; happens to all.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: John Boskovic]
#83396
01/03/07 12:38 AM
01/03/07 12:38 AM
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The point in regards to this topic of "Does the end justify the means?" is simply, that if it is all a "program", then there is no issue of either the end or the means. But if there is a genuine controversy, as I know there is; then the answer to the controversy demands its own validity. - I do not believe that the answer stands in who has the biggest muscles.
I do not believe that the answer stands in who knows the most or all.
I do not believe that the answer stands in who knows the future best.
I do not believe the answer stands in whose program will succeed.
If it these were the issues then the end would justify the means. The controversy is not over any of these issues. It is a of a different nature. The controversy is of the same nature as that of salvation. The answer is of the same nature as that of salvation.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: John Boskovic]
#83407
01/03/07 04:12 AM
01/03/07 04:12 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I sort of believe in the last one. It depends upon how you think of it. The program doesn't succeed because arbitrary means are used to make it so, but the program is one of love, mercy, and truth. It succeeds because these principles, by which God governs, really are the principles of life, happiness and peace.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Tom]
#83409
01/03/07 04:51 AM
01/03/07 04:51 AM
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I sort of believe in the last one. It depends upon how you think of it. The program doesn't succeed because arbitrary means are used to make it so, but the program is one of love, mercy, and truth. It succeeds because these principles, by which God governs, really are the principles of life, happiness and peace. I don't know what you understand a program to mean. The following is from a dictionary. 1. a plan of action to accomplish a specified end: 2. a plan or schedule of activities, procedures, etc., to be followed. The point of a program is in its programmed activity. Programs, by their very nature have a lack of genuineness; an element of performance. Love, mercy, and truth cannot be classed into a program, as neither can spirit. (as I uderstand program, and as I understand people to commonly use it) Love, mercy and truth do not answer the controversy, because of a program set forth, but because the nature of Love, mercy and truth, is life and peace; while hate, wrath and lies work destruction and death. The answer of the controversy is thus in the very nature of that which is at odds, rather than in any presentation of the same.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: John Boskovic]
#83416
01/03/07 02:38 PM
01/03/07 02:38 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I was thinking of the "program" as "the plan of salvation."
I was pretty sure you had something else in mind, which is why I wrote, "It depends on how you think of it."
I agree completely with the idea that God did not do anything special, in terms of organizing an activity, or doing anything arbitrary; rather, He simply put forth a plan to make evident the true principles involved on both sides of the controversy.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Tom]
#83428
01/03/07 05:48 PM
01/03/07 05:48 PM
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I find proof in the Bible and the SOP that God is in control of the outcome of our choices. I have not found anything to suggest that God usually remains uninvolved and let's things unfold naturally. Again, I believe He leaves nothing to choice or chance.
I believe God works actively and intimately to orchestrate the cause and effect outcome of our choices. He makes sure that nothing we think, say, or do derails or undermines His plans and strategy to win the GC. God knows the end from the beginning, and things will end favorably because He will not sit back and let the scroll unfold helter-skelter. JB: According to your view, this is all just a phase of God's game. MM: Sister White refers to it as the “game of life”. She says, “All are engaged in playing the game of life.” (2T 36) Every one, I saw, must obtain an experience for themselves, act well and faithfully their part in the game of life. {4bSG 149.1}
My dear brethren, will you allow Satan to accomplish his purpose? Will you submit to lose the game in which you desire to win everlasting life? {2T 37.1}
Multitudes in the world are witnessing this game of life, the Christian warfare. And this is not all. The Monarch of the universe and the myriads of heavenly angels are spectators of this race; they are anxiously watching to see who will be successful overcomers, and win the crown of glory that fadeth not away. {Te 144.4}
Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. {TDG 175.2}
Satan can skilfully play the game of life with many souls, and he acts in a most underhanded, deceptive manner to spoil the faith of the people of God and to discourage them.{Ev 359.4} The great controversy, the plan of salvation, the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus, the investigative judgment, the MOB crisis, the seven last plagues, the first and second resurrections, the lake of fire, the new earth – these are all “phases” of the “game of life”. And God is leaving none of it to choice or chance. By “choice” I mean He will not allow our choices to derail His strategy to ensure each phase of the “game” plays out according to His master plan. And by “chance” I mean God will not sit back and let nature take its course. He is micro-managing every detail.
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Re: Does the end justify the means?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#83445
01/03/07 08:12 PM
01/03/07 08:12 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
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God allowed choice to derail His original plan, which was that sin would never occur.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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