TV: To state this in a way you feel familiar with Mike, Balaam and Cyrus are the exceptions to the rule.

MM: I don't think so, Thomas. God can be very persuasive when it serves His purpose. God can, without violating our freedom to choose, persuade us not to jeopardize or undermine His ultimate will. The following divine injunction or mandate illustrates the point nicely:

Ezekiel
3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel’s choices were limited – Do or die. Fortunately for him he chose to obey God. It is interesting, too, that God said, “I lay a stumblingblock before him”, that is, before the backslider. Again, God takes matters into His own hands. He leaves nothing to choice or chance.

TV: To state this in a way you feel familiar with Mike, Balaam and Cyrus are the exceptions to the rule.

MM: I don't think so, Thomas. God can be very persuasive when it serves His purpose. God can, without violating our freedom to choose, persuade us not to jeopardize or undermine His ultimate will. The following divine injunction or mandate illustrates the point nicely:

-Indeed God can be. But if this be the rule rather than the exception to the rule, it would mean that God would be regularily sending genuine messages to fortune tellers and regularily sending heathen kings to save His people from between rocks and hard places.
Hmm, maybe I better check that horoscope just in case...


Ezekiel
3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel’s choices were limited – Do or die. Fortunately for him he chose to obey God. It is interesting, too, that God said, “I lay a stumblingblock before him”, that is, before the backslider. Again, God takes matters into His own hands. He leaves nothing to choice or chance.

TV: Hmm, maybe I better check that horoscope just in case...

MM: Is that really what you get out of how God has managed things in the past? Just how much wiggle room do you think God gives sinners? Does He standby idly unconcerned if our actions undermine His goals and purposes? I don't think so. I believe God is proactive. I do not believe He will allow anything or anyone to derail His plans and strategy to win the GC - even if it means empowering rocks to help finish proclaiming the gospel so Jesus return on schedule.

How is this different than the choice of anyone else? Either we follow the principles of life, outlined in God's law (the principles of love), or we follow the principles of sin (the principles of selfishness), which cannot support life, and we die.

It is the example you gave of Balaam. There is reason to believe that Balaam was a kind of fortuneteller who stumbled upon God and recognised Him as a deity he dared not cross but then went happily on without letting this chance meeting with the Creator burden his mind. Gods dealing was with Israel, not with Balaam. Therefore I make the assumption that this is not standard procediure and therefore "an exception to the rule".

We should remember that the root to this particular subthread was from your statement:The point being that Balaam and Cyrus arent good illustrations on this...

MM, God *may* "interfere," but it would certainly be wrong for us to infer anything from the times He doesn't. Job is a good example of this. It is certainly not the case that when God does not interfere that this means the consequences are something God desired, intended or planned. Really, this is simple to see, just by looking at what God actually did in the flesh when He was living here with us!

I find proof in the Bible and the SOP that God is in control of the outcome of our choices. I have not found anything to suggest that God usually remains uninvolved and let's things unfold naturally. Again, I believe He leaves nothing to choice or chance. I believe God works actively and intimately to orchestrate the cause and effect outcome of our choices. He makes sure that nothing we think, say, or do derails or undermines His plans and strategy to win the GC. God knows the end from the beginning, and things end favorably because He does not sit back and let the scroll unfold helter-skelter.

I realize you two, Tom and Thomas, disagree with this view of God's sovereignty.

• 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

With this in view, it proposes that "all" will be "saved". I do not mind that, except that in your scenario God leaves nothing to choice, meaning there is/was no sin, hence no one to save.

According to your view, this is all just a phase of God's game.

John is right. If God leaves nothing to choice, there is no sin.

Your view that evil angels do not commit evil when they do what God permits them to do is consistent with your idea that God leaves nothing to choice. But this idea does not present God in a flattering way, nor in a way which is consistent with what we see in Jesus Christ.

Let's take a simple case. Let's say that a child is abused by its parent. All of us would agree that God can take even this most tragic of circumstances and is able to work something good out of it, but what about the actual act itself? Did God desire, intend, or plan that the child be abused? Say an evil angel led the parent to abuse the child, by introducing thoughts into the parent's head, by way of drugs or porn or whatever. Given that evil angels are not committing evil when they do things which God permits, then they are not doing evil by tempting the parent to abuse its child. So, by your theory, the temptation is not evil.

What is it then? Is it good? Is it something planned, intended, or desired by God? What of the act of abuse itself? Is that planned, intended, or desired by God?

If angels do not do evil when they do things permitted by God, what about men? Logically if evil angels are innocent of doing evil when they do things which God permits, then evil men are also innocent of doing evil when they do things God permits.

JB: According to your view, this is all just a phase of God's game.

MM: John, please define what you think I meant in the context of what I wrote - "Again, I believe He leaves nothing to choice or chance." Thank you.