Maybe it is as simple as this: Mike says that born again people have come beyond sin and having a perfect understanding of the vital doctrines. Thus, if he admits to being in error, he would to himself in doing that say that he is not born again. Could this be true?

Yes, Thomas, I was wondering if something along those lines might be the case. It's hard to express in words; you did a nice job.

Maybe it is that perfection of character in MM's eyes has to do with rules, and not with faith?

This is an interesting statement:



I wonder if this is commonly believed.

I would say the "rules" are descriptive, rather than proscriptive; that is, the describe what God is like, rather than being a list of things we're not supposed to do.

Given that the law is a transcript of God's character, how could He "bend the rules"? That would contradict His saying, "I am the Lord. I change not."

TE: Since the principle doesn't apply to smoking, drinking, and polygamy, there are no doubt analagous areas where they also do not apply.

MM: I disagree. The rule applies with equal force to all sinful habits and practices. But God has, from time to time, made exceptions to the rule.

………………………

MM: God can bend the rules if He wants to, and He does when it serves His purpose. But we cannot bend them.

TE: Given that the law is a transcript of God's character, how could He "bend the rules"? That would contradict His saying, "I am the Lord. I change not."

MM: Earlier on this thread I posted two biblical examples of God bending the rules to save sinners. Do you believe God made a mistake when He bent the rules?

Thomas, I do not believe born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. Do you believe I believe it? Or, do you think I believe the hideous thing you suggested?

Do you agree with the following inspired insights? If so, then pleaase explain what it means to you. Thank you.

1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

JB: Maybe it is that perfection of character in MM's eyes has to do with rules, and not with faith?

MM: Are you suggesting we separate law and works? If so, then please explain how it is done. Thank you.

FW 96, 97
The doctrine of sanctification advocated by many is full of deception, because it is flattering to the natural heart; but the kindest thing that can be preached to the sinner is the truth of the binding claims of the law of God. Faith and works must go hand in hand; for faith without works is dead, being alone. {FW 96.3}

4T 494
Through repentance, faith, and good works he may perfect a righteous character, and claim, through the merits of Christ, the privileges of the sons of God. {4T 294.2}

Since what this was speculating on was Toms perception of you being incapable of conceeding when caught being in error, the important point must really be the one about "having perfect understanding of vital doctrines". Mike, can you be wrong and would you confess being wrong if you found yourself being wrong? Would having a false understanding about a doctrine, in your thinking, negate your salvation? Lets say you are finally overwhelmingly convicted that God in creating beings and giving them a free will in this act ceded some of his sovereignity and therefore has surrendered some things outside of His controll, ponder if this would happen, would such a change in any way affect your relation to the salvation offered by Jesus?

No, I would never separate law and works; law, works and rules…go hand in hand…but have nothing to do with character or righteousness.

The concept of rules defining righteousness or perfection of character is at enmity with God.

The concept of exclusive privilege of bending the rules does not bode well for character.

Thomas, I do not believe born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. Do you believe I believe it? Or, do you think I believe the hideous thing you suggested?

Please answer this question. It is important to me. Thank you.

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1. Mike, can you be wrong and would you confess being wrong if you found yourself being wrong?

MM: Yes.

2. Would having a false understanding about a doctrine, in your thinking, negate your salvation?

MM: No.

3. Lets say you are finally overwhelmingly convicted that God in creating beings and giving them a free will in this act ceded some of his sovereignity and therefore has surrendered some things outside of His controll, ponder if this would happen, would such a change in any way affect your relation to the salvation offered by Jesus?

MM: Probably not. I would, by faith and the grace of God, thank Him and praise Him "for" all things and "in" all things. I may not be able to explain why God commands or permits this and that thing to happen, but I believe with all of my heart, mind, and soul that He will explain it to me in heaven, and that it will make perfect sense to me.

Ephesians
5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians
5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.