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Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #83525
01/05/07 04:27 PM
01/05/07 04:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
JB: No, I would never separate law and works; law, works and rules…go hand in hand…but have nothing to do with character or righteousness.

MM: And I believe a righteous character is the result of obeying the law.

JB: The concept of rules defining righteousness or perfection of character is at enmity with God.

MM: and I believe the law is the standard by which a righteous character is judged.

JB: The concept of exclusive privilege of bending the rules does not bode well for character.

MM: It is not a character defect for God to bend the rules. There is nothing contradictory about it.

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #83527
01/05/07 04:44 PM
01/05/07 04:44 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
TE: Since the principle doesn't apply to smoking, drinking, and polygamy, there are no doubt analagous areas where they also do not apply.

MM: I disagree. The rule applies with equal force to all sinful habits and practices. But God has, from time to time, made exceptions to the rule.


The rule that you say applies with equal force for to all sinful habits is that they must be revealed and confessed. If your assertion that this rule applies with equal force to every sinful habit, this means is that the exception applies to every sinful habit. Otherwise some sinful habits are treated differently than others, which would mean that the rule does not apply with equal force.

Or to put it another way, if some sinful habits can be exempted, but others cannot be, then there is a difference in the way sinful habits are treated. Some are exempted, from time to time, from your rule, and others aren't.

So I suppose for clarification I should ask, do you believe that any sinful habit can be exempted from the rule that it must be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed before the person can be born again, or are there sinful habits for which this exemption does not apply?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #83528
01/05/07 04:50 PM
01/05/07 04:50 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM: God can bend the rules if He wants to, and He does when it serves His purpose. But we cannot bend them.

TE: Given that the law is a transcript of God's character, how could He "bend the rules"? That would contradict His saying, "I am the Lord. I change not."

MM: Earlier on this thread I posted two biblical examples of God bending the rules to save sinners. Do you believe God made a mistake when He bent the rules?

I don't know what this is referring to.

The only rule to being saved is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." God doesn't bend this rule because it isn't an arbitrary rule which could be bent. It's a description of the process by which God heals (saves) sinners.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #83529
01/05/07 04:56 PM
01/05/07 04:56 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
JB: Maybe it is that perfection of character in MM's eyes has to do with rules, and not with faith?

MM: Are you suggesting we separate law and works? If so, then please explain how it is done. Thank you.


What were you thinking when you read what JB wrote here? I can't understand what would prompt you to ask, based on what JB wrote, if he was suggesting that law and works be separated.

It's clear to me that he was "suggesting" exactly what he asked, which is that there is an appearance that you perceive perfection of character as having to do with rules, as opposed to having to do with faith.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #83564
01/05/07 11:34 PM
01/05/07 11:34 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
JB: No, I would never separate law and works; law, works and rules…go hand in hand…but have nothing to do with character or righteousness.
MM: And I believe a righteous character is the result of obeying the law.
Righteousness by rules!? Really, by now there should be a clarity that righteousness comes not by obeying rules, but righteousness comes by faith.

JB: The concept of rules defining righteousness or perfection of character is at enmity with God.
MM: and I believe the law is the standard by which a righteous character is judged.
But it is not only that you wish to judge whether one is righteous by the law (rules) but you also assert above that one achieves perfection of righteousness by obeying rules. Now he who judges is not a doer of the law, how then shall he achieve the perfection of character; and if not righteous how shall he judge by the law.

JB: The concept of exclusive privilege of bending the rules does not bode well for character.
MM: It is not a character defect for God to bend the rules. There is nothing contradictory about it.
Let’s see: perfection of character comes by obeying the rules; while he who is perfect in character has the privilege of bending the rules...interesting!

Perhaps what you might consider is that God's righteousness is not of the law, but is of a different nature; and hence what appears to you the bending of rules is but the work of his righteousness.

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: John Boskovic] #83578
01/06/07 01:40 AM
01/06/07 01:40 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: … do you believe that any sinful habit can be exempted from the rule that it must be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed before the person can be born again, or are there sinful habits for which this exemption does not apply?

MM: There are certain sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit must reveal, that is, He cannot allow the sinner to go on in ignorance committing them. Romans 2 explains it.

……………………..

MM: Earlier on this thread I posted two biblical examples of God bending the rules to save sinners. Do you believe God made a mistake when He bent the rules?

TE: I don't know what this is referring to.

MM: Thief on the cross was not baptized and yet he will be in heaven. And certain Gentiles will be saved who never called on the name of Jesus.

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #83583
01/06/07 02:12 AM
01/06/07 02:12 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
JB: Let’s see: perfection of character comes by obeying the rules; while he who is perfect in character has the privilege of bending the rules...interesting!

MM: We’re talking about two different “rules”. Character perfection is the fruit of obeying the law (rules) of God. The “rules” God bends to save people is not the law.

6BC 1073
The law of Jehovah is the tree, the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears (Letter 119, 1897). {6BC 1073.6}

3T 371
The sinner, through repentance of his sins, faith in Christ, and obedience to the perfect law of God, has the righteousness of Christ imputed to him; it becomes his righteousness, and his name is recorded in the Lamb's book of life. He becomes a child of God, a member of the royal family. {3T 371.2}

Quote:
We do not earn salvation by our obedience, for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not" (chap. 3:5, 6). Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you; he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous" (verse 7). Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. {RC 274.3}

Faith and works go together, believing and doing are blended. The Lord requires no less of the soul now, than He required of Adam in Paradise before he fell-- perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement of God under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement He made in Paradise--harmony with His law, which is holy, and just, and good. The gospel does not weaken the claims of the law; it exalts the law and makes it honorable. Under the New Testament, no less is required than was required under the Old Testament. Let no one take up with the delusion so pleasant to the natural heart, that God will accept of sincerity, no matter what may be the faith, no matter how imperfect may be the life. God requires of His child perfect obedience. {1SM 373.1}

That which God required of Adam before his fall was perfect obedience to His law. God requires now what He required of Adam, perfect obedience, righteousness without a flaw, without shortcoming in His sight. God help us to render to Him all His law requires. We cannot do this without that faith that brings Christ's righteousness into daily practice. {2SM 380.4}

When we bring our lives to complete obedience to the law of God, regarding God as our supreme Guide, and clinging to Christ as our hope of righteousness, God will work in our behalf. This is a righteousness of faith, a righteousness hidden in a mystery of which the worldling knows nothing, and which he cannot understand. Sophistry and strife follow in the train of the serpent; but the commandments of God diligently studied and practiced, open to us communication with heaven, and distinguish for us the true from the false. This obedience works out for us the divine will, bringing into our lives the righteousness and perfection that was seen in the life of Christ (MS 43, 1907). {1BC 1118.4}

The gospel of good news was not to be interpreted as allowing men to live in continued rebellion against God by transgressing His just and holy law. Why cannot those who claim to understand the Scriptures, see that God's requirement under grace is just the same He made in Eden-- perfect obedience to His law. In the judgment, God will ask those who profess to be Christians, Why did you claim to believe in My Son, and continue to transgress My law? Who required this at your hands--to trample upon My rules of righteousness? "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim that righteousness. O that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace ith God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice (RH Sept. 21, 1886)! {6BC 1072.8}

(1 John 2:4.) Faith Manifested by Works of Obedience.-- God requires at this time just what He required of the holy pair in Eden, perfect obedience to His requirements. His law remains the same in all ages. The great standard of righteousness presented in the Old Testament is not lowered in the New. It is not the work of the gospel to weaken the claims of God's holy law, but to bring men up where they can keep its precepts. {6BC 1073.1}

The faith in Christ which saves the soul is not what it is represented to be by many. "Believe, believe," is their cry; "only believe in Christ, and you will be saved. It is all you have to do." While true faith trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect conformity to the law of God. Faith is manifested by works. And the apostle John declares, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar" (RH Oct. 5, 1886). {6BC 1073.2}


JB: Perhaps what you might consider is that God's righteousness is not of the law, but is of a different nature ...

MM: I do not divorce the law from the gospel. “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Rom. 8:4) “The enemy has ever labored to disconnect the law and the gospel. They go hand in hand.” (6BC 1073)

Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #83596
01/06/07 05:38 AM
01/06/07 05:38 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, you're not dealing with the issues JB is raising. In particular, his final paragraph would be an especially good one to consider:

Quote:
Perhaps what you might consider is that God's righteousness is not of the law, but is of a different nature; and hence what appears to you the bending of rules is but the work of his righteousness.


Also this point is very well taken:

Quote:
Let’s see: perfection of character comes by obeying the rules; while he who is perfect in character has the privilege of bending the rules...interesting!


This points out the inconsistency of what you've been presenting. If righteousness were by keeping rules, then the most righteous one would be the one who best kept the rules. Since God is perfectly righteous, it would follow that He would that One. He would not bend the rules.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Tom] #83597
01/06/07 05:50 AM
01/06/07 05:50 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
TE: … do you believe that any sinful habit can be exempted from the rule that it must be revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed before the person can be born again, or are there sinful habits for which this exemption does not apply?

MM: There are certain sinful habits and practices the Holy Spirit must reveal, that is, He cannot allow the sinner to go on in ignorance committing them. Romans 2 explains it.

This contradicts your idea that the "rule" applies to all sinful habits with equal force.

……………………..

MM: Earlier on this thread I posted two biblical examples of God bending the rules to save sinners. Do you believe God made a mistake when He bent the rules?

TE: I don't know what this is referring to.

MM: Thief on the cross was not baptized and yet he will be in heaven. And certain Gentiles will be saved who never called on the name of Jesus.

I think you're whole way of conceptualizing what's happening in the process of salvation is off if you think that God was bending a rule here to save sinners. Salvation is by faith. The thief had faith. The Gentiles who believed in Christ without knowing His name had faith. No rules were broken.

If salvation were something arbitrary, then God could break arbitrary rules in order to save. But salvation is not an arbitrary thing. It's not something God gives to someone in return for obeying some rule. It's a process which happens when one responds to the light and truth which God gives to all.

Jesus Christ is the true light who lightens everyone who comes in the world. All who love that Light will be saved. That's the only way of salvation for any creature in the universe.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christian Perfection of Character - what and how. [Re: Mountain Man] #83604
01/06/07 01:06 PM
01/06/07 01:06 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
MM: We’re talking about two different “rules”. Character perfection is the fruit of obeying the law (rules) of God. The “rules” God bends to save people is not the law.
Am I correct in understanding you to be saying that character perfection comes by obeying the Ten Commandments; and that the rules which God bends to save people are not those?

JB: Perhaps what you might consider is that God's righteousness is not of the law, but is of a different nature; and hence what appears to you the bending of rules is but the work of his righteousness.
MM: I do not divorce the law from the gospel. “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
Thank you for the quote MM. Please note that the scripture you quoted does not say that righteousness or perfection of character comes by obeying the Law.

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