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Re: How do these events differ? [Re: vastergotland] #83282
01/01/07 01:37 AM
01/01/07 01:37 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
MM: Thomas, I am not aware of Christians taking advantage of Jews and excusing it based on the "perpetual curse".


It's been going on for centuries. You must not have any Jewish friends or acquaintences or know anything whatsoever about Judaism. That helps explain some of your comments, which would be extremely insensitive to anyone Jewish. If you are ignorant of this history, then you wouldn't understand how your comments could be taken. You just didn't know the implications of some of the things you were writing.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How do these events differ? [Re: vastergotland] #83283
01/01/07 01:48 AM
01/01/07 01:48 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom, you seem to think that when God gives evil angels permission to cause death and destruction that He leaves it up to Satan to decide what can and cannot be done. If so, then I disagree. I believe holy angels are commanded to make sure that the evil anggels do not pass the boundary God established. In this way, evil angels can do nothing more than God has ordained.


MM, from my perspective, your whole way of phrasing this is completely wrong. You are not stating the issue correctly, so any comments on it will be off as well (again, as I see things).

What happens is that evil angles are intent upon doing evil. Sometimes God allows them to do evil things. This is no way implies that God is an any way a party to the evil that they are doing. Evil is *not* God's will, never has been, and never can be.

God's will is defined by His law, and was clearly shown to us in the person of His Son. Whenever anyone, whether angel or human, acts contrary to His law, or the Word made flesh, they are acting contrary to His will.

God does not ordain that the evil angels do evil. This is a terrible misunderstanding.

Your statements sort of remind of the dialog Christ had with those accusing Him of healing by the powers of Beelzebub. Christ pointed out that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. The important point to recognize is that Satan actually does act contrary to God's will, and against His kingdom.

There are two different kingdoms, with different principles and goals.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Tom] #83305
01/01/07 03:24 PM
01/01/07 03:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Thomas, I read through the link you posted. Thank you. However, I didn't read where "Christians" looted Jews excusing it based on the "perpetual curse". I did, though, read about the RCCs ill treatment of Jews. But I do not consider the RCC to be "Christian". It is a cult.

Tom, your musings about my knowledge of Jews and Judaism are off the mark.

Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Mountain Man] #83321
01/01/07 06:39 PM
01/01/07 06:39 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, if you knew the first thing about Jews or Judaism you could never have written this:

Quote:
Thomas, I am not aware of Christians taking advantage of Jews and excusing it based on the "perpetual curse".


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Tom] #83325
01/01/07 07:17 PM
01/01/07 07:17 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
820
Agobard, Archbishop of Lyon, declares in his essays that Jews are accursed and demands a complete segregation of Christians and Jews. In 826 he issues a series of pamphlets to convince Emperor Louis the Pious to attack "Jewish insolence", but fails to convince the Emperor.

1298
During the civil war between Adolph of Nassau and Albrecht of Austria, German knight Rindfleisch claims to have received a mission from heaven to exterminate "the accursed race of the Jews". Under his leadership, the mob goes from town to town destroying Jewish communities and massacring about 100,000 Jews, often by mass burning at stake. Among 146 localities in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria are Röttingen (April 20), Würzburg (July 24), Nuremberg (August 1).

415
Jews are accused of ritual murder during Purim.[2] Christians in Antioch, and Magona confiscate or burn synagogues. Bishop Cyril of Alexandria forces his way into the synagogue, expels the Jews and gives their property to the mob. Prefect Orestes is stoned almost to death for protesting.

1096
The First Crusade. Three hosts of crusaders pass through several Central European cities. The third, unofficial host, led by Count Emicho, decides to attack the Jewish communities, most notably in the Rhineland, under the slogan: "Why fight Christ's enemies abroad when they are living among us?" Eimicho's host attacks the synagogue at Speyers and kills all the defenders. Another 1,200 Jews commit suicide in Mayence to escape his attempt to forcibly convert them; see German Crusade, 1096. Attempts by the local bishops remained fruitless. All in all, 5,000 Jews were murdered. St. Bernard intervened to minimize the worst of the persecution, preaching vigorously against the killing.[4]

1144 March 20 (Passover)
The first blood libel in which the Jews of Norwich, England were accused of ritual murder after a Christian boy (William of Norwich) is found dead. It was claimed that the Jews had tortured and crucified their victim. From this time forward, similar charges were levelled against Jews in all quarters of Europe. The believers of these accusations reasoned that the Jews, having crucified Jesus, continued to thirst for pure and innocent blood and satisfied their thirst at the expense of innocent Christian children. In accordance with this logic, the season of such charges was typically in Spring around the time of Passover which approximately coincides with the time of Jesus' death. [5] The legend of William of Norwich became a cult, and the child acquired status of martyr saint. In 1189, Jewish deputation attending coronation of Richard the Lionheart is attacked by the crowd. Pogroms in London follow and spread around England. On Feb 6 1190 all the Norwich Jews found in their houses were slaughtered, except few who found refuge in the castle.

This is the tragic story of the Jews in christian lands. And notice that this happens in both eastern and western christian areas.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: How do these events differ? [Re: vastergotland] #83359
01/02/07 04:10 PM
01/02/07 04:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thomas, nothing you have quoted proves born again believers took advantage of Jews excusing it based on the "perpetual curse". Again, I do not believe the RCC is Christian. It is a pagan cult masquerading as a Christian church.

Sister White made three statements in the following DA quote that clearly teach us the truth regarding the “perpetual curse” the Jews have been suffering now for more than 1800 years. Please do not accuse me of being anti-Semitic based on these quotes. I am simply pointing out what God inspired a prophet to record.

1. That people who chose Barabbas in the place of Christ were to feel the cruelty of Barabbas as long as time should last.

2. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a perpetual curse.

3. Terribly has it been manifested in the condition of the Jewish nation for eighteen hundred years

DA 738, 739
The people of Israel had made their choice. Pointing to Jesus they had said, "Not this man, but Barabbas." … In making this choice they accepted him who from the beginning was a liar and a murderer. Satan was their leader. As a nation they would act out his dictation. His works they would do. His rule they must endure. That people who chose Barabbas in the place of Christ were to feel the cruelty of Barabbas as long as time should last. {DA 738.5}

Looking upon the smitten Lamb of God, the Jews had cried, "His blood be on us, and on our children." That awful cry ascended to the throne of God. That sentence, pronounced upon themselves, was written in heaven. That prayer was heard. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a perpetual curse. {DA 739.1}

Terribly was it realized in the destruction of Jerusalem. Terribly has it been manifested in the condition of the Jewish nation for eighteen hundred years,--a branch severed from the vine, a dead, fruitless branch, to be gathered up and burned. From land to land throughout the world, from century to century, dead, dead in trespasses and sins! {DA 739.2}

The following quote from AA teaches us that there is hope for individual Jews who embrace Jesus as their personal Saviour.

Quote:
At the time when Jerusalem was destroyed and the temple laid in ruins, many thousands of the Jews were sold to serve as bondmen in heathen lands. Like wrecks on a desert shore they were scattered among the nations. For eighteen hundred years the Jews have wandered from land to land throughout the world, and in no place have they been given the privilege of regaining their ancient prestige as a nation. Maligned, hated, persecuted, from century to century theirs has been a heritage of suffering. {AA 379.2}

Notwithstanding the awful doom pronounced upon the Jews as a nation at the time of their rejection of Jesus of Nazareth, there have lived from age to age many noble, God-fearing Jewish men and women who have suffered in silence. God has comforted their hearts in affliction and has beheld with pity their terrible situation. He has heard the agonizing prayers of those who have sought Him with all the heart for a right understanding of His word. Some have learned to see in the lowly Nazarene whom their forefathers rejected and crucified, the true Messiah of Israel. As their minds have grasped the significance of the familiar prophecies so long obscured by tradition and misinterpretation, their hearts have been filled with gratitude to God for the unspeakable gift He bestows upon every human being who chooses to accept Christ as a personal Saviour. {AA 379.3}

It is to this class that Isaiah referred in his prophecy, "A remnant shall be saved." From Paul's day to the present time, God by His Holy Spirit has been calling after the Jew as well as the Gentile. "There is no respect of persons with God," declared Paul. The apostle regarded himself as "debtor both to the Greeks, and to the barbarians," as well as to the Jews; but he never lost sight of the decided advantages possessed by the Jews over others, "chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." "The gospel," he declared, "is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." It is of this gospel of Christ, equally efficacious for Jew and Gentile, that Paul in his epistle to the Romans declared he was not ashamed. {AA 380.1}

When this gospel shall be presented in its fullness to the Jews, many will accept Christ as the Messiah. Among Christian ministers there are only a few who feel called upon to labor for the Jewish people; but to those who have been often passed by, as well as to all others, the message of mercy and hope in Christ is to come. {AA 380.2}

In the closing proclamation of the gospel, when special work is to be done for classes of people hitherto neglected, God expects His messengers to take particular interest in the Jewish people whom they find in all parts of the earth. As the Old Testament Scriptures are blended with the New in an explanation of Jehovah's eternal purpose, this will be to many of the Jews as the dawn of a new creation, the resurrection of the soul. As they see the Christ of the gospel dispensation portrayed in the pages of the Old Testament Scriptures, and perceive how clearly the New Testament explains the Old, their slumbering faculties will be aroused, and they will recognize Christ as the Saviour of the world. Many will by faith receive Christ as their Redeemer. To them will be fulfilled the words, "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name." John 1:12. {AA 381.1}

Among the Jews are some who, like Saul of Tarsus, are mighty in the Scriptures, and these will proclaim with wonderful power the immutability of the law of God. The God of Israel will bring this to pass in our day. His arm is not shortened that it cannot save. As His servants labor in faith for those who have long been neglected and despised, His salvation will be revealed. {AA 381.2}

"Thus saith the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. But when he seeth his children, the work of Mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify My name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel. They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine." Isaiah 29:22-24. {AA 382.1}

Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Mountain Man] #83392
01/02/07 09:35 PM
01/02/07 09:35 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Thomas, nothing you have quoted proves born again believers took advantage of Jews excusing it based on the "perpetual curse". Again, I do not believe the RCC is Christian. It is a pagan cult masquerading as a Christian church.
To differentiate between sheep and wolves in sheeps clothing may seem reasonable but wont really work in relation to such people whos beliefs arent quite close to the ones held by oneself. You and I may see a field of wheat and tares, others see only a sown and growing field. The Jew who is burned at a pole cares litte about the difference between wheat and tares when his persecutors stand before him with a torch in one hand and a cross in the other. Same applies to the bystander who stands by watching.
Quote:

Sister White made three statements in the following DA quote that clearly teach us the truth regarding the “perpetual curse” the Jews have been suffering now for more than 1800 years. Please do not accuse me of being anti-Semitic based on these quotes. I am simply pointing out what God inspired a prophet to record.

1. That people who chose Barabbas in the place of Christ were to feel the cruelty of Barabbas as long as time should last.

2. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a perpetual curse.

3. Terribly has it been manifested in the condition of the Jewish nation for eighteen hundred years
I wonder if this summary would stand the test of wider context?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: How do these events differ? [Re: vastergotland] #83423
01/03/07 03:37 PM
01/03/07 03:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TV: The Jew who is burned at a pole cares litte about the difference between wheat and tares when his persecutors stand before him with a torch in one hand and a cross in the other. Same applies to the bystander who stands by watching.

MM: Sad, but true. But again, the truth is, real Christians do not knowingly take advantage of Jews excusing it based on the "perpetul curse".

TV: I wonder if this summary would stand the test of wider context?

MM: The AA quote I posted above is a good balance. But it does not take away from the facts presented in the DA qoute. Do her comments surprise you?

Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Mountain Man] #83519
01/05/07 02:02 PM
01/05/07 02:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
DA 738, 739

1. That people who chose Barabbas in the place of Christ were to feel the cruelty of Barabbas as long as time should last.

2. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a perpetual curse.

3. Terribly has it been manifested in the condition of the Jewish nation for eighteen hundred years …

From these statements it should be clear that Israel, since clamoring for the blood of Jesus to be unto them forever, is still reaping what she sowed. Although individual Jews can be saved in Jesus, as a nation, Irsael is cursed, doomed to suffer affliction. Does it make God evil? No, of course not. It just means He keeps His promises.

Matthew
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

1 Peter
2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Re: How do these events differ? [Re: Mountain Man] #83629
01/07/07 01:12 AM
01/07/07 01:12 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The question of the thread is how the events of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and last century differ. It appears that you, MM, are saying they don't. Is that correct?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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