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Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett [Re: vastergotland] #83753
01/09/07 07:47 PM
01/09/07 07:47 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
OP
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23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,133
Nova Scotia, Canada
No, I didn't, but I didn't pay for it on the Sabbath either, as I would have, if I had chosen to go to a restaurant instead.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett [Re: Daryl] #83754
01/09/07 07:55 PM
01/09/07 07:55 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
So having someone work for you is wrong if you pay for it on Sabbath but right if you pay for it on another day? On a line between 1 and 5, how hypocritical is that? Would it be less sinfull to pay for the services you obtain on sabbath if you first put the money in a tithe envelope?

...


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett [Re: vastergotland] #83755
01/09/07 08:09 PM
01/09/07 08:09 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
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Posts: 25,133
Nova Scotia, Canada
I do not know what the arrangements were at the 2000 General Conference Session in Toronto, Ontario, therefore, I am not going to discuss that with you any further, other than to say that I saw a clear difference in those who chose to buy their ticket the day before and eat there on the Sabbath from those who decided to go to a restaurant and spend their money then and there on the Sabbath.

By the way, the purchased ticket was good for any day during the GC Session. That was also the only way one could eat there on any day during the GC Session.

I like the way it is done on Sabbaths during our Maritime Campmeeting. It is done on a donation only basis in which the donations received goes towards a previously announced specific conference project. By the way, the kitchen staff still prepare the meals for feeding the people on the Sabbath. The meal preparation for the Sabbath meals may be different than the other days, but they still work to prepare the meal and feed the people.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett [Re: Daryl] #83762
01/09/07 08:46 PM
01/09/07 08:46 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
So having someone work for you is wrong if you pay for it on Sabbath but right if you pay for it on another day? On a line between 1 and 5, how hypocritical is that?


4.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett [Re: vastergotland] #83764
01/09/07 09:02 PM
01/09/07 09:02 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom,

Your reasoning also makes sense in that he said a translator was present, however, this is what he shared, therefore, either it happened as he shared it, or he, an evangelist, told a falsehood in what he experienced on world TV. Why would he have done that?


People tell falsehoods for all sorts of reasons, oftentimes innocently. I'm much more comfortable with the idea of someone, like an evangelist, acting out of character than for God to do so.

There's a very important reason that we understand that God does not do these types of miracles (for the sake of sensationalism; the above mentioned case wouldn't have any other purpose, since there was a translator present). Actually a couple of reasons. First of all, it would provide a basis for establishing truth which God has no interest in. He desires that truth be established on the basis of careful thought and consideration, not on the basis of miracles. Jesus taught that very plainly (consider John 6 for example, in regards to the feeding of the 5,000). Secondly, Satan is able to counterfeit all these things. They in no way establish truth, so there is no reason for God to act in such a way.

I'm not aware of a single case presented by inspiration which follows along sensational lines. I am aware of counsel from the Spirit of Prophecy which outline the principles I'm laying out here. (for example, the chapter in the Great Controversy on counterfeit religious revivals, which are filled with the sensational). A third reason which comes to mind is that sensationalism does not convert. It just leaves the observer hungry for more. Not for the bread from heaven which truly satisfies, but the other kind (as Jesus spoke of in John 6).

I can't answer as to why a falsehood was told, but as one who must have read a lot of crazy things on this forum, you surely must know you can't believe everything you hear. Otherwise you'll wind up sending lots of money to some shmoe in Nigeria who has millions waiting for you, if you'll just send him a little to help expedite things.

Just consider all the apocraphol references to the Spirit of Prophecy as an example of stories one can hear that have no basis in truth.

The true sign of a Spirit led church is truth. Those led by the Spirit will have an all-consuming interest in truth. The Spirit will guide and lead into all truth.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett [Re: Tom] #83770
01/09/07 11:34 PM
01/09/07 11:34 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,133
Nova Scotia, Canada
Well, I do not have any reason to believe that this evangelist, be it Doug Batchelor, or Mark Finley or whoever, has told a falsehood.

In the last days, the manifestation of the gifts and the manifestation of miracles will take place, therefore, why not in this type of manifestation of the gift of tongues.

It's questioning things like this that squelches the gifts and miracles in the first place by telling God under what circumstances or reasons that it can or not can take place.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett [Re: Daryl] #83779
01/10/07 02:39 AM
01/10/07 02:39 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Well, I do not have any reason to believe that this evangelist, be it Doug Batchelor, or Mark Finley or whoever, has told a falsehood.

Do you have any reason to believe that God would act contrary to His character?

In the last days, the manifestation of the gifts and the manifestation of miracles will take place, therefore, why not in this type of manifestation of the gift of tongues.

It's questioning things like this that squelches the gifts and miracles in the first place by telling God under what circumstances or reasons that it can or not can take place.

I must agree with what Ellen White has presented on this subject. I think the position you appear to be taking is very dangerous. Satan can easily do these miracles. People who are looking for miracles will be easy prey. It's truth that God will use to reach people, not miracles.

Here's one example of the ideas she presents:


Quote:
The enemy is preparing to deceive the whole world by his miracle-working power....

When the Lord has a genuine channel of light, there are always plenty of counterfeits. Satan will surely enter any door thrown open for him. He will give messages of truth mingling with the truth ideas of his own, prepared to mislead souls, to draw the mind to human beings and their sayings, and prevent it from holding firmly to a "Thus saith the Lord." In God's dealings with His people, all is quiet; with those who trust in Him, all is calm and unpretending. There will be simple, true, earnest believers in the Bible, and there will be doers of the Word as well as hearers. There will be sound, earnest, sensible waiting upon God.--Letter 102, 1894. {2SM 22.1}(emphasis mine)


We have so much counsel along these lines. She probably wrote hundreds of pages of similar things. The chapter I mentioned from the Great Controversy would be a good one to look at. Here's an example:

Quote:
Popular revivals are too often carried by appeals to the imagination, by exciting the emotions, by gratifying the love for what is new and startling. Converts thus gained have little desire to listen to Bible truth, little interest in the testimony of prophets and apostles. Unless a religious service has something of a sensational character, it has no attractions for them. A message which appeals to unimpassioned reason awakens no response. The plain warnings of God's word, relating directly to their eternal interests, are unheeded. {GC 463.2}

With every truly converted soul the relation to God and to eternal things will be the great topic of life.


Truth is exciting enough! There is no need for the sensational to accompany truth.

I'm curious, can you substantiate in any way this idea of yours:


Quote:

It's questioning things like this that squelches the gifts and miracles in the first place by telling God under what circumstances or reasons that it can or not can take place.


What makes you think this is true?

I'd like to make very clear that the reason I am questioning your story is not because it features gifts or miracles, but because of the way it purports to do so, in ways that would be contrary to principles God as clearly revealed to us.

Going back to the alleged incident, you present the idea that a person spoke in his own language, but was heard in a different language. I pointed out this can't be right because:

1)This isn't how the gift of tongues works, as presented in either Scripture of the Spirit of Prophecy. The SOP quote I presented stated that those who had the gifts of tongues accurately spoke in tongues they had not known. How could this possibly be applied to a person speaking his own tongue?

2)The gift is the gift of tongues, not of hearing. If it were a gift of hearing, it would only be effective for those who had the gift of hearing. In this case, not everyone who heard the sermon would hear the words in his own tongue; only those who had this gift of the Spirit would. This would make it worthless for evangelism, because only the converted would have the gift. What would be the use for such a "gift"?

The purpose given for the gift of tongues, by the Spirit of Prophecy, was to present the Gospel. But if the person hearing the word is already converted, which he would have to be to have the gift of the Spirit of hearing, then for what purpose the "gift"?

3)There was a translator present. Why would God use a miracle when a translator is present? When has God *ever* used supernatural means unnecessarily? Did Jesus Christ every do this? Even once?

Here's another statement from the SOP:


Quote:
God does not generally work miracles to advance His truth. If the husbandman neglects to cultivate the soil after sowing his seed, God works no miracle to counteract the sure result of neglect. In the harvest he will find his field barren. God works according to great principles which He has presented to the human family, and it is our part to mature wise plans, and set in operation the means whereby God shall bring about certain results. {Ev 652.6}

Those who make no decided effort, but simply wait for the Holy Spirit to compel them to action, will perish in darkness. We would ask those who are waiting for a miracle, What means have been tried which God has placed within your reach?(emphasis mine)


Surely using a translator who is present is a means within our reach which can be tried!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett [Re: Tom] #83781
01/10/07 04:09 AM
01/10/07 04:09 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
One example of the above.

Act 8:4 They therefore that were scattered abroad, went about preaching the word.
Act 8:5 And Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and proclaimed unto them the Christ.
Act 8:6 And the multitudes gave heed with one accord unto the things that were spoken by Philip, when they heard, and saw the signs which he did.
Act 8:7 For from many of those that had unclean spirits, they came out, crying with a loud voice: and many that were palsied, and that were lame, were healed.
Act 8:8 And there was much joy in that city.

#1 The proclamation of Jesus
#2 The people listened when they saw
#3 The throwing out of spirits, the healing of sick


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett [Re: vastergotland] #83787
01/10/07 12:33 PM
01/10/07 12:33 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,133
Nova Scotia, Canada
Yes, and it also says that these same miracles will happen again in the last days, even in the midst of the counterfeit ones.

I also believe that we are in the last days.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Audio Message on The Holy Spirit Led Church by Daryl Fawcett [Re: Daryl] #83789
01/10/07 12:35 PM
01/10/07 12:35 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,133
Nova Scotia, Canada
Tom,

How, or in what way, is it contrary to God's character?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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