No, I didn't, but I didn't pay for it on the Sabbath either, as I would have, if I had chosen to go to a restaurant instead.

So having someone work for you is wrong if you pay for it on Sabbath but right if you pay for it on another day? On a line between 1 and 5, how hypocritical is that? Would it be less sinfull to pay for the services you obtain on sabbath if you first put the money in a tithe envelope?

...

I do not know what the arrangements were at the 2000 General Conference Session in Toronto, Ontario, therefore, I am not going to discuss that with you any further, other than to say that I saw a clear difference in those who chose to buy their ticket the day before and eat there on the Sabbath from those who decided to go to a restaurant and spend their money then and there on the Sabbath.

By the way, the purchased ticket was good for any day during the GC Session. That was also the only way one could eat there on any day during the GC Session.

I like the way it is done on Sabbaths during our Maritime Campmeeting. It is done on a donation only basis in which the donations received goes towards a previously announced specific conference project. By the way, the kitchen staff still prepare the meals for feeding the people on the Sabbath. The meal preparation for the Sabbath meals may be different than the other days, but they still work to prepare the meal and feed the people.

4.

People tell falsehoods for all sorts of reasons, oftentimes innocently. I'm much more comfortable with the idea of someone, like an evangelist, acting out of character than for God to do so.

There's a very important reason that we understand that God does not do these types of miracles (for the sake of sensationalism; the above mentioned case wouldn't have any other purpose, since there was a translator present). Actually a couple of reasons. First of all, it would provide a basis for establishing truth which God has no interest in. He desires that truth be established on the basis of careful thought and consideration, not on the basis of miracles. Jesus taught that very plainly (consider John 6 for example, in regards to the feeding of the 5,000). Secondly, Satan is able to counterfeit all these things. They in no way establish truth, so there is no reason for God to act in such a way.

I'm not aware of a single case presented by inspiration which follows along sensational lines. I am aware of counsel from the Spirit of Prophecy which outline the principles I'm laying out here. (for example, the chapter in the Great Controversy on counterfeit religious revivals, which are filled with the sensational). A third reason which comes to mind is that sensationalism does not convert. It just leaves the observer hungry for more. Not for the bread from heaven which truly satisfies, but the other kind (as Jesus spoke of in John 6).

I can't answer as to why a falsehood was told, but as one who must have read a lot of crazy things on this forum, you surely must know you can't believe everything you hear. Otherwise you'll wind up sending lots of money to some shmoe in Nigeria who has millions waiting for you, if you'll just send him a little to help expedite things.

Just consider all the apocraphol references to the Spirit of Prophecy as an example of stories one can hear that have no basis in truth.

The true sign of a Spirit led church is truth. Those led by the Spirit will have an all-consuming interest in truth. The Spirit will guide and lead into all truth.

Well, I do not have any reason to believe that this evangelist, be it Doug Batchelor, or Mark Finley or whoever, has told a falsehood.

In the last days, the manifestation of the gifts and the manifestation of miracles will take place, therefore, why not in this type of manifestation of the gift of tongues.

It's questioning things like this that squelches the gifts and miracles in the first place by telling God under what circumstances or reasons that it can or not can take place.

Well, I do not have any reason to believe that this evangelist, be it Doug Batchelor, or Mark Finley or whoever, has told a falsehood.

Do you have any reason to believe that God would act contrary to His character?

In the last days, the manifestation of the gifts and the manifestation of miracles will take place, therefore, why not in this type of manifestation of the gift of tongues.

It's questioning things like this that squelches the gifts and miracles in the first place by telling God under what circumstances or reasons that it can or not can take place.

I must agree with what Ellen White has presented on this subject. I think the position you appear to be taking is very dangerous. Satan can easily do these miracles. People who are looking for miracles will be easy prey. It's truth that God will use to reach people, not miracles.

Here's one example of the ideas she presents:



We have so much counsel along these lines. She probably wrote hundreds of pages of similar things. The chapter I mentioned from the Great Controversy would be a good one to look at. Here's an example:



Truth is exciting enough! There is no need for the sensational to accompany truth.

I'm curious, can you substantiate in any way this idea of yours:



What makes you think this is true?

I'd like to make very clear that the reason I am questioning your story is not because it features gifts or miracles, but because of the way it purports to do so, in ways that would be contrary to principles God as clearly revealed to us.

Going back to the alleged incident, you present the idea that a person spoke in his own language, but was heard in a different language. I pointed out this can't be right because:

1)This isn't how the gift of tongues works, as presented in either Scripture of the Spirit of Prophecy. The SOP quote I presented stated that those who had the gifts of tongues accurately spoke in tongues they had not known. How could this possibly be applied to a person speaking his own tongue?

2)The gift is the gift of tongues, not of hearing. If it were a gift of hearing, it would only be effective for those who had the gift of hearing. In this case, not everyone who heard the sermon would hear the words in his own tongue; only those who had this gift of the Spirit would. This would make it worthless for evangelism, because only the converted would have the gift. What would be the use for such a "gift"?

The purpose given for the gift of tongues, by the Spirit of Prophecy, was to present the Gospel. But if the person hearing the word is already converted, which he would have to be to have the gift of the Spirit of hearing, then for what purpose the "gift"?

3)There was a translator present. Why would God use a miracle when a translator is present? When has God *ever* used supernatural means unnecessarily? Did Jesus Christ every do this? Even once?

Here's another statement from the SOP:



Surely using a translator who is present is a means within our reach which can be tried!

One example of the above.

Act 8:4 They therefore that were scattered abroad, went about preaching the word.
Act 8:5 And Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and proclaimed unto them the Christ.
Act 8:6 And the multitudes gave heed with one accord unto the things that were spoken by Philip, when they heard, and saw the signs which he did.
Act 8:7 For from many of those that had unclean spirits, they came out, crying with a loud voice: and many that were palsied, and that were lame, were healed.
Act 8:8 And there was much joy in that city.

#1 The proclamation of Jesus
#2 The people listened when they saw
#3 The throwing out of spirits, the healing of sick

Yes, and it also says that these same miracles will happen again in the last days, even in the midst of the counterfeit ones.

I also believe that we are in the last days.

Tom,

How, or in what way, is it contrary to God's character?