Just curious if Nature is "messed up" in your end of the woods (world). Here at my house Nature is VERY messed up. Today is January 12 and I live about 200 yards from the Northumberland Straight (the body of water between New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island) The water is "supposed" to be FROZEN! BUT alas there is NO ICE!!! We have had little snow and we are "supposed" to have snow banks and at least a few feet on the ground! It has been so warm here on some days, that many trees are starting to bud! Insects taht are supposed to be frozen are on warm days (above 40) have been seen flying and or crawling!

-So is it just me or is nature (the Earth) moaning with Birth pains? yet another very BIG sign of His VERY SOON Return!
-Ready or not here He comes, anyone who tries to make excuses will not be accepted!

I just read where it snowed earlier today in Southern California and left snow on the ground only a hour East of Los Angeles.

Dan, the weather has always been weird. I have lived on the west coast, the mid-west, and the east coast, and for the last 30 years people have been complaining about how weird the weather is. I did some research on it in college a few years ago and discovered that the weather has been "weird" since the Flood. "There is nothing new under the sun."

Daryl, I grew up an hour east of Los Angeles and it snowed fairly regularly, about twice a year every other year or so. It was never very much and it didn't stay around too long. There are tall mountains nearby that get several feet of snow every year. There's a ski resort up there.

I live in BC, the lower mainland to be precise, and it has been -12, icy roads.
We had some really strong winds not too long ago, in fact so strong that some old trees around 200 years old were completely uprooted.
I think it is weird and strange, but we know these things are suppose to happen, Jesus said they would before His coming.
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will

I cannot recall a scripture specifically talking about weather patterns in the last days as a "sign".
I believe the weather began to be "messed up" the day sin entered this world. EGW speaks of Adam and Eve feeling a chill in the air and they noticed the animals seeming to be afraid of them, after their sin and eviction from the garden.
It is my opinion from things I've heard and read the past few years, that historic records indicate that the weather has always varied greatly. The further back you go, the harder it is to find clearly predictable patterns. Weird weather is probably normal. We live in a weird world which has been spoiled by sin.

We live in the "snow belt" here in OH, and have only seen a few flakes! It has been more like Fall or Spring! Very strange...I think it will produce a big crop of diseases...has not gotten cold enough to kill of the bad stuff....Doesn't seem like winter at all...

The Bible may not mention the weather specifically, however, I think it can be included.

Ya our weather here in the Great Lakes State has been messed up. That is until this morning when we awoke to cold and snow. Personlly I kind of liked those messed up 50 degree days when my wood pile went down slowly and I didn't have to get out the snow plow.

Redfog

We are now in the midst of a snow storm that could bring us up to 20 cm. (about 9 inches) of snow.

Everythings perfectly normal here in western Nebraska. We've got about 18 inches of snow piled on top of ice, and right now it's 6 degrees farenheit!

I saw on the news a picture of a water fountain with thick icicles on it. That water fountain is located in Phoenix, Arizona.

Here is other news pertaining to Arizona at the following link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070122/ap_on_re_us/winter_blast

So, it would seem that the majority of comments on the weather in varied locations is that it's warmer than "normal"? I think only one reply from Nebraska said it was colder or at least at normal. Well, that's called "Global Warming" by the scientific community. It's part of a cycle, like most things on earth, a regular repeating cycle, and up and down swing, recorded in the history of this planet via rock formations, ice packs, and other surface records.

I do think we are clearly in a "warming" phase (receeding glaciers, increasing temps world wide measured over long periods of time) and that we are also contributing to this warming phase. I don't think we know just how much of an impact we are making, with Co2 emmissions, deforestaion on a global level, and other man released pollutions thru industrial production. But I think we can clearly see from the data available that we are adding to the increasing temps.

I also believe that this is having a direct impact on the "physical" world around us. The polar ice caps are shrinking at VERY measureable rates. This is directly affecting the lives of the creatures that live in that area, and yes, there are creatures that live in those area's.

I think we all need to be concious of our actions upon this planet. God told us to "go forth and mulitply" but we also need to take care of the place that we have. We can not just use and abuse, with no regard for the other lives we affect. Try to recycle, think before you buy, do you really NEED that? Try to walk, ride a bike, or use some other form of transport. It's not only environmentally friendly, it's healthy. And since our body is the temple of God, we need to keep it healthy.

I don't think you have to be radical or extreme in your earth concious actions, you should just be aware, and try to be kind. No person can have ZERO impact, so don't shoot for that, or even consider that. Just be aware, make better decesions, think it through. And if we all make little changes in our own lives, we can make a big difference.

Please take care of the wonderful creatures and plants that God gave us to enjoy. He's provided so many differnt amazing things for us to enjoy, let's rejoice and celebrate His gifts to us.

The wierd weather is cyclical, and is scheduled for a nice cooling after 2012, like we had in the early 70's was it - the feared, modern ice age. The rest of what I've posted here is still in this mood of friendly discussion...

The "scientific community" is only publicised by the media for the sake of politicians - who need a scare story. The floods in England over the last 6 or so months from heavy rain fall are also to be blamed on poor infrastructure planning in residential areas with and without the building of ever more houses where one has to be careful to cater for the natural elements. And, yes, Scotland Wales regularly get the snow here unless Northern Ireland and England also get a cold gust of clouds from the north or east, which is how Kent gets its snow....We're currently enjoying a pleasant 50 degrees!

The UK House of Lords Committee on Economic Affairs - economists in Parliament - reported about two years ago, on the costs of climate change, that the UN's IPCC did not have any scientific basis for demanding huge investment in measures by industry and humans generally to combat climate change: the government just taxes us to extremes, anyway. Unleaded at present is $9.30/UK Gal, $7.71/US Gal; diesel is $8.16/US Gal!!! Road tax for new cars since 2002 has been according to CO2 in g/km as expensively as possible (just look herehttp://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/vedSearch.asp).

The scientific community's point of view is as solid as the modern theory of evolution - speculations: don't rely on it, is what the rest of the climatologists and meteorologists are saying. Even the BBC weather centre is unwilling to support the British political drive these days for being environmental.

Natural weather cycles need no human assistance, but we can and must look after nature around us. Fortunately or unfortunately, the main "green house" gas is methane - not CO2, but it's no energy match for petrol when converted to fuel: warming cycles draw CO2 into the air from the sea and the ground (the sea has 10 times more CO2 stored in it - mostly at depth - than the ground), so that the air has the least of all three, before and after warming up. That petrol contest with methane (BBC's Topgear) involved both bovine (cow's) and human methane, and the bovine sort was better...!

There's a book just out by Richard North and Christopher Booker entitled "Scared to Death": blame for raising global warming and BSE, etc., as dangers, is laid squarely at the feet of our own politicians. We want out of this world of sin, and to get away from our politicians! In the meantime, good stewardship of our natural surroundings is what God expects, but man-made pollutants, no longer harmful to health at present standards, do not need getting rid of on environmental grounds. Of course I'm in favour of exercise.

I'd better stop there.

December-January 2011, we have just experienced 6 Mondays in a row with major Nor'easter Storms. first 3 with crazy rain over 250mm in total, the last 3 with blizzard snows!

Not to mention what is happening in both Australia and Brazil, which are definite signs of the nearness of the 2nd Coming, don't you think?

As long ago as the late 1850's, Ellen White wrote that "Christ could have come 'ere this." There were many statements in the 1888 era indicating that God was working to prepare things for Christ's coming, but because of intransigence, Christ's coming was delayed. Therefore it's not possible that an increase in rainfall is a sign that Christ's coming is soon.

There must be a reason why it's taken so long for Christ to come again. The ministry in the MHP was supposed to take so long (and there is no need for it to have taken a long time.)

We need to focus on the spiritual reasons for Christ's delay.

The weather is definitely acting strange but not any more strangely than in the past. The weather has always caused trouble and will continue to do so. Eventually, however, religious people are going to conclude God is punishing them for allowing Sunday to be desecrated. They will cry for Sunday laws. But none of this will happen until enough SDA church members are rock solid on righteousness by faith.

Regarding CO2 emissions, do you think our release of it really has an effect? For example, how much do we release, how much is out there, and is our addition significant?

The data I've seen said to be supporting increasing temperatures only goes back 30 years. When you look at 1000's of years, we find warm temperatures are followed by cool temperatures in a repeating cycle with an average holding steady. How do you see we are responsible for an increase in temperature?

Deforestation, and not any CO2 from burning it, I would agree changes the environment. The presence or absence of trees can change the environment. But a bigger thing than worrying about what it does to us located far away is what it does permanently to the soil in rain forest areas.

Of course it is. It's an evidence that the Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth and the four winds are about to be loosened.

The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, disasters by sea and by land, follow one another in quick succession. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. . . . {Mar 175.3}

These floods were the worst natural disaster of Brazil's history. The death toll up till now is 668.

Every time an Army heads out towards Moscow, there is a winter that causes the invading army to be defeated. Charles II, Napoleon Bonaparte, Hitler. If unusual weather is evidence of God acting on earth, does that mean that God defends Russia?

Ellen wrote that over 100 years ago. Since then the weather around the world has been better and worse. Since the Fall of A&E the weather has been better and worse. Is there any reason to believe things are different now? Yes, of course, things have been bad lately. But are we to assume it means the Second Advent is more likely to happen now than at any time previously?

In fact, the whole SDA end-time scenario needs to be re-examined. The events we point to in order to show the nearness of Chris's return may have been close to EGW's day, but they are a long way from today, and many events in the prophecies in Daniel, the Revelation, and the gospels were never fulfilled.

Do you suspect Ellen got some of it wrong in the Great Controversy?

Too many bad occurrences together. What I've been reading in the media is, "the worst in 30 years", "in 40 years", "in 70 years", and so forth. Not to mention incidents like that one in Brazil, whose probability of happening is of once in 350 years. Estimates are that it rained 250-300mm in 24 hours. (Numbers are: almost 800 dead, over 300 missing.)

I wonder what she (EGW) means by that?

"The worst in 30 years" means that 31 years ago, it was worse than what it is now.

Rosangela, do you think the recent rash of bad occurrences around the world are harbingers indicating the Second Advent is more likely now than ever before?

"The prophecies of the eleventh of Daniel have almost reached their final fulfillment." Mar 25.

As of the time Ellen wrote, the unfulfilled aspects of Dan 11 are:

11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.
11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Of course the longer the delay in Christ's return, the worse things will get, but things getting worse is not what Christ is waiting for in order to come! This is really scratching where it doesn't itch.

COL 69 tells us Christ is waiting for His character to be reproduced in His people, and then He will come. It doesn't matter how much it rains in Australia or Brazil.

I believe focusing on matters such as rainfall is missing the mark, as the reasons for the delay in Christ's return are spiritual.

I think the increase in the frequence and intensity of bad occurrences indicates the near approach of Christ.

So, exactly why do some of you think that there is supposed to be a connection between the weather and Jesus coming? At first I thought there might be one in Matthew 24, but Jesus never mentions anything weather related there. So where did the idea come from?

I've never said, nor do I believe, that Christ is waiting for the world to become bad enough for Him to come.
Of Course Christ is waiting for the Church to get ready.
When the Church reflects fully His character, the world will understand God's love and accept Him, and then He will be able to come.
But the Bible implies that there would be disturbances in nature as signs of the second coming (Luke 21:25, 26).

Luke 21:25-26
25"And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Eh... I am not sure I follow how this connects with any of the weather we have had recently.

I think we are struggling with a circular arguement: The world is getting worse, so Christ must be comming, and Christ is comming, so the world must be getting worse. Neither proposition has been actually demonstrated.

Personally, I don't see the world getting worse. Yes, there are bad things happening, but there is also good progress for more rights and freedoms, more aid groups, more international cooperation, more help in times of disaster, longer lifespans, etc. Slavery is universally condemed, we don't have gladitorial games, women have the right to vote, etc. There are a lot advances in how people run the world. (Don't read anything theological into that.)

Study a little history and you will immediately see how lob-sided society was up untill about mid-19th century or so. We're a lot better now than we used to be.

If this is understood to mean that Christ's coming must be soon because it's raining more than ever in Australia or Brazil, I think this is being misunderstood.

To me, this is too nebulous: "...the Bible "implies" there would be "disturbances" in nature..." What does that mean??

If prophecy is (partly) for God's people to know what is coming, "implying disturbances" is not very helpful. Pretty much anything will fit in that category.

Why, when we're so fond of pointing out the exact fulfilment of prophecy to prove Jesus birth, his Mesiahship, etc., we suddenly go with "implied disturbances"?

The text speaks about disturbances in the the oceans, and this pressuposes, among other things, climate changes. In turn, the oceans are one of the main regulators of climatic conditions in global scale.

Disturbances in nature are occurring worldwide in an increasing scale, not just in Australia or Brazil.

When Christ's character is reproduced in His people, then He will come and claim them as His own. What's the connection between the weather and this?

The cause for Christ's delay is a spiritual one, not a physical one.

Also, out of curiosity, on what basis do you assert that Disturbances in nature are occurring worldwide in an increasing scale?

Sorry, but:

And not only that, but climate changes cause havoc in agricultural production which leads to increased costs for consumers and therefore..... That's why Christ's coming must be near -- because of the higher price of eggs in China.

I noticed your original comment was 4 years ago about how warm it was. Guess it all averages out.

The connection is this: while the Spirit's work in the heart of the righteous is intensified, as we approach the end of time the rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit in the world also increases. As the restraining ministry of the Spirit is gradually withdrawn, Satan gets more and more freedom to work - not only in the hearts of people, but also in nature.

Shall but little be done, when the curse of sin has grown to such proportions that already the Spirit of God, insulted, rejected, and abused, is being withdrawn from the earth? Just as fast as God's Spirit is taken away, Satan's cruel work will be done upon land and sea. Judgments by fire and flood will increase in fearfulness; for Satan claims his harvest of souls in the destruction. {YI, June 29, 1899 par. 7}


I've already said I agree with this.


Take a look at some of the headlines since 2009:

01.21.2009
Argentina: Worst Drought in 100 Years

02.04.2009
Worst Drought in 50 Years Hits China

09.2009
Manila Pounded by Worst Flooding in 40 Years

09.23.2009
Australia Experiences Worst Dust Storm in 70 Years

Winter 2009-10
Britain's worst snowfall in 30 years: Winter 2009-10

01.21.2010
Cuba Registers Record Low Temperatures in 50 Years

01.19.2010
The wettest Christmas holidays in 60 years [In Andalucía, Spain]

02.22.2010
Worst Snowfall in 40 Years in Moscow

03.02.2010
Florida's Coldest Winter in 30 Years

06.17.2010
Worst Flooding in 200 Years for Southeastern France

08.02.2010
Pakistan’s worst flood in 80 years

11.15.2010
Belgium reels from ‘worst flooding in 50 years’

12.03.2010
Southeastern Europe struggling with some of the worst flooding in a century.

12.06.2010
Rain fury in Bosnia, Serbia; flood worst in a century

12.29.2010
This December Could Be the Coldest Month in Cuba in 60 Years

12.30.2010
Australia's worst floods in '50 years'

But all this must be a simple "coincidence."

All those headlines tell us is that the 30-50 last years have been pretty calm, since the last time christians were reading headlines and wondering whether Christs second coming was just to happen. And in those days, the cold war was still making waves with Vietnam and Korea wars and a Cuba nuclear chrisis. Are things really worse now? Those of you who are old enough to remember the 1968 can tell us.

If the last 30-50 years have been pretty calm, this time is over.


Indeed.

Natural disasters and weather related calamities have been waxing and waning since the fall of A&E. So, what's new? Wars and rumors of war continue to plague the world. So, what's new? False prophets and false christs abound. So, what's new? The SDA church is wallowing in laodicea. So, what's new? The SDA church is still failing to grasp the significance of 1888. So, what's new?

Because of the economical crisis which this can provoke in the world.

From the article quoted just above:

The frequence and intensity is increasing. This is new. These are warning signals to those who wish to heed them.

About Laodicea, I would say, "Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him" (1 Kings 19:18). There is always a remnant in whose heart God is enthroned - an Israel within Israel. Be sure to be part of this remnant.

So now we're back to what it was like 30 years ago?

Was there some turning point that started 30 years ago which made disasters reduce in intensity? Were people 30 years ago saying how the end is near, but now for 30 years, nothing happened? How do you know we still aren't 30 years out as it was 30 years ago?

All I said was, if things were calm, they are no longer - since we are having so many disturbances in nature. And it seems things will not get any better.

I am looking at these verses one verse at a time and editing this post as I do this.

The prophecy of Daniel 11:40 was fulfilled in part by France in 1798 and then by Turkey against the French in 1799.

I would also say that Daniel 11:41 was fulfilled when France had conquered "the glorious land" from the Turks and later lost it again to the Turks.

Now on to verse 42.

Amen!

Daryl, are you basing your comments on Uriah Smith's D&R?

Yes, I am, which I have on E-Sword for easy referencing and reading.

From what I have read there, I can also see where Daniel 11:42 has also been fulfilled.

Of the 16 "disasters" listed by Rosangela, not one of them in any category prophecied in the Bible. Scripture talks about signs in the sun, moon, and stars, earthquakes, famines, wars, and rumors of war. (Did I miss any?) No floods, no snowfall, no drought, no record rainfall.

We can't go adding whatever we want to Scripture, and then claim fulfilled prophecy.

Besides, no one has yet convinced me that the world is getting worse in any category.

The “disasters” I mentioned have to do with climatic disturbances. In Luke 21:25, 26 Jesus mentioned astral phenomena, widespread fear, and disturbances in the oceans. It is well known that disturbances in the oceans can both cause climate variability and be caused by climate changes. So, you are entitled to your opinion, however I see climatic disturbances as related to the signs of Christ’s coming. I’m not claiming that the “disasters” I mentioned are a fulfillment of prophecy, but they seem to be a sample of what is going to happen, which will leave “men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world”.

The disturbances in the oceans also seem to have ended a persistent draught in Australia. First there was too little water => end of time sign, then there was too much water => end of time sign. Is it so that any weather pattern for western Australia which keeps it different from the green hills of Ireland is a end time sign?

Anything which greatly departs from the normal patterns of nature for a given region is "unpredecented," a word which has been frequently employed to describe the phenomena which have been happening as of lately.

The "normal" for weather patterns is based on the average of the weather the past 30 years. The world is at least 6000 years old. On what basis do we say that the past 30 years is representative for the world history of climate?
Unprecedented may also refer to the age of meteorological studies, which is approximately from 1850 to the present day. This certainly extends the period, but the question still remains. On what basis do we say that the last 160 years is representative for the total history of the world. So what is a normal weather in any given place around the world?

What is impressive in these events is not their occurrence per se. Most of them have already happened - 30, 50, 80, 200 years ago - but as isolate events. What is unusual is their simultaneous occurrence in a global scale. This may mean a global climatic change. Of course this makes people wonder, Where is this going to lead us? If this continues to happen and to intensify, it will inevitably lead to the conditions described by Jesus: "And upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world."

Very true, Rosangela. What matters is what the majority think about it. It doesn't matter that their thoughts are wrong. If they think God is upset and causing disasters because Sunday is being desecrated it will motivate them to do something about it. Ellen was shown:

Climatic changes are never mentioned in any Biblical prophecy. Neither you nor I have been able to cite any prophecy that references climatic changes. There are specific events, such as famines, islands being moved out of their place, signs in the sun, moon, and stars, seas roaring and tossing, but no mention of climate change generally. To argue such is just bad really questionable exegesis.

Many things are not explicitly stated in the Bible but can be logically inferred. The Trinity is one of them. As I said, climate variability/change is one of the causes of the roaring and tossing of the seas. If there is a cause-effect relationship between the two, on what basis should climate disturbances be excluded from the prophecy?

That reminds me of the time I first heard of El Nino. They told me the reason we were having bad weather was because of El Nino. Then later, I heard others telling me we were having bad weather because of La Nina. Which did strike me as odd, but possible. Then later others told me we were having bad weather because we're between El Nino and La Nina.

I finally concluded we have bad weather and don't pay attention to what they say is the reason. And what is bad weather? I'm sure many life forms in Australia are thinking too much rain was very beneficial as they might now be able to survive and/or reproduce for the first time in many years. Just like the cycle before that, and the one before that, .....



But is the weather different? Of course it is. Every year is different. In our temperate area, I have yet to see any rain forests encroaching, nor have I seen any glaciers encroaching. Scientists have said both have happened in the past. Which is some widely fluctuating climate.

Many are indeed now looking at climatic changes to find a “sign of the end”, as stated in another more pertinent discussion on this issue (see here), which is however related to this one, the only and true sign of the end is found in Matt 24:14. So we should be focusing our energies into fulfilling this rather than be “sign watchers”. God is in full, ultimate control of nature and nothing overwhelmingly catastrophic will occur until He allows it, and that will be only after the unequivocally exhaustive Gospel mandate of Matt 24:14 has been fulfilled.

Other pertinent signs include:

1. Universal enforcement of Sunday Laws
2. SDA martyrdom
3. Satan's personation of the Second Coming

Seems to me that these are among the “signs”/events that will come to pass only when final events have begun to be unravelled and this, according to my understanding will not begin to occur until the work of the World Testimony of the Gospel is first completed. So I rather see these as confirming fulfillement during the “end” rather than ‘announcing/warning “signs” of the end.’ The “end” would have already begun a (relatively speaking) long time before e.g., the passing of a Sunday Law. So that is why those who are looking first for a Sunday Legislation in order to mobilize themselves will have waited too late and would have proven to be “unfaithful” in regards to the in-faith evangelistic work that God expects of SDA believers.

"World Testimony"? I'm not familiar with that term. But, if you are speaking about the gospel going to the world and being "completed", the Sunday laws is a decision point for individuals. But maybe you are correct regarding those who are putting off until that time, that probation for those individual would have closed. But I would agree, that for them to get the Sunday laws passed, there would appear to need some overwhelming disaster to allow that to be passed. Many countries are heading towards a financial disaster. They (or the world at large) are prime candidates for a financial "savior" which could require "conditions".

What power? How is it able to give that power? Could a possibility be a "bail-out"? With strings attached?

That is a term straightly derived from Christ’s Gospel mandate statement in Matt 24:14 (NASB).



As I Theologically/Prophetically, and also (spiritually) logically from the Bible and SOP, Sunday Laws will not begin to be seriously sought until the 3 Angel’s Message, which fully incorporates the Gospel is first thoroughly proclaimed throughout the world, and that includes a “fuller” understanding of the Sabbath as it extends into the socio-economic life (see Isa 58). The decisions that will take place after Sunday Laws are past occur under the events of the Loud Cry. Some I see a Full Gospel|3AM proclamation-Opposing “Sunday Laws”-Loud Cry Work outline of events.

I placed Sunday Law in quotes because under a fuller understanding of God’s Sabbath, it is seen that anything that seeks or comes to oppose the Global implementation of these eternal socio-economic principles by correspondence is part of the Mark of the Beast. That thus currently factually and spiritually is Capitalism. You’ll have to read through my blog for more on this. (You can start with this post).



As stated throughout this blog post, as I find absolutely no Biblical or SOP support for natural disasters or an economic crisis leading to the start of Final Events or the passing of Sunday Laws. Any disaster that occurs in the endtime will be a direct judgement of God and nothing man made or natural. Hence will be the religious outcry to silence those who are claiming that these, indeed, seemingly natural events are the very, disapproving judgement of God Himself.

Notwithstanding this understanding here, as I now have a Bible-based eschatological understanding of Bible Prophecies, (see why/how from this post), I see that these judgements of God will be manifested in a more subtle and spiritualized way but will nonetheless lead to “False “Sabbath” Enforcing Measures” where it will then be require by force/law that all countries, pointedly the newly forming/formed NJK must adopt Capitalistic principles if they are to be allowed to “buy or sell” on world markets. They way Socialist countries are marginalized today shows how readily this can and surely will be done. Even most SDA resolutely or defeatedly share in this unbiblical, Capitalism revering/supporting mentality (See e.g, this MSDAOL post for more on this issue).

Does "by correspondence" mean "by force"? If so, this is very similar to how I see things. Also, it's not just the Sabbath that's involved, but the whole of God's law (which it looks like may be in harmony with what you're saying as well). That is, Satan is not just at war with the Sabbath, but with God's law as a whole.

That is indeed my implied meaning, i.e., ‘something that thus comes to inevitably fits the Mark of the Beast criteria.’



Glad to hear that you evidently understand the “fuller” meaning of God Sabbath a more that just ‘observing the correct day, in the correct way’ but also foundational socio-economic principle which seeks to meet the needs of those in need (Isa 58) indeed as Jesus emphasized as the Final Test. (Matt 25:31-46).



Indeed this is what I also believe and on this blog post I show how the current adherence to Capitalism, the craftily implemented (by Protestant Christians, no less (i.e., 2nd Beast)) direct opponent of God’s “Fuller” Sabbatical Truth, each of the 10 Commandments are violated in both letter and spirit.

Unfortunately, by simply refusing to seek to do all that we indeed can to help those in vital need, out of a willful or subservient (i.e., respectively, ‘forehead or hand’), the SDA Church is not seeing the Spiritual ight of truth in this “Fuller Sabbath” teaching, but instead are only seeing the literal 7th Day vs. Sunday part of the Third Angel Message. Thus:

Part A - 1st Beast - Saturday Sabbath vs. Sunday Sacredness
Part B - 2nd Beast - Socio-Economic Sabbatical Principles vs. Capitalism

The following insight makes it clear Sunday Laws will enable SDAs to proclaim the 3AMs more effectively:

The following passages make it clear natural disasters will cause people to clamor for Sunday Laws:

I think you have read too much into that statement. My point, and the issue here is that the Three Angels must be first proclaimed prior to the Sunday Law agitations. Also the Everlasting Gospel is indeed fully included in these 3AM’s. What you are emphasizing here is merely the effect from that priorly proclaimed Message which will actually occur under the Loud Cry, which involves particularly the 3rd Message.

My question is, for anyone who may readily know, does the Shaking occur before or after the passing of Sunday Laws? I understand that it occurs before. (It is quite interesting that the “Shaking” is not, as far as I see, at least explicitly, mentioned/related in the GC [1911] book.)

Similarly, does anyone know of an SOP statement which says that National Sunday Laws will first be formally passed before the Little Time of Trouble.

All this to say that while most SDA’s believe that they will first see the fulfillment of Sunday Law prophecies before any Shaking or Sifting takes place in the Church may be greatly surprised, as this, as well as the causally accompanying Little Time of Trouble, may occur before such formal Sunday Law Legislation, indeed even before the great agitation to pass them. So waiting for Sunday Laws to confirm their faith, may be a false refuge and such unanchored believer will probably be Shaken out of God True Church long before that time. While it is said that “many who have strayed from the fold will come back to follow the great Shepherd. (6T 401 (1900). {LDE 152.2}) this is said in the context of the “Little Time of Trouble” which, as already said, may transpire before any concrete/formal Sunday Law Movement or even “agitations”.

Case in point, in what is described in the above EGW quote GC 605.3 speaks of the Loud Cry, the beginning of the Sunday Law agitations is said to occur just prior to what is the Loud Cry, and since the Shaking occurs before the Loud Cry, (EW 271) then I see it that the Shaking will occur before the beginning of these agitations, as well as the outpouring of the Latter Rain. Indeed the issue for the Shaking is the Straight Testimony of the Laodicean True Witness and not Sunday Law-derived oppositions.

So Sunday Law procrastinating/watching will prove to be the doom of many in the SDA Church, just like the First Century Jews wanted to see the physically glorious Messianic coming and thus ignored the lowly and spiritual Gospel reforms and mandates of Jesus Christ.

Admittedly, I actually mindlessly (and quasi-ragefully) misspokedly, overstated my conclusion here. I should have solely continued to make this denunciatory statement strictly against the popular unsupported belief that an economic crisis will cause Final Events and Sunday Laws, especially/most notably David Gates’ outrightly heretical teaching that such a national crisis will be the SOP’s “National Ruin” and does not actually need to follow (i.e., post close of probation) “National Apostasy.” (See in this post).

So I stand corrected in regards to my wrongly, also included, national disasters, although I still do not see these calamitous events as the prophesied “National Ruin” which I understand will be God’s direct judgements on those who have taken the Mark of the Beast (see Rev 16:1, 2ff).

Having said all of this, I still have an eschatological, spiritually re-interpreting view on all of these SOP prophecies all in the light of the Sabbath “Fuller” extension to include its socio-economic inreach and outreach, principles and benefits. Thus e.g., I see this future Sunday Law as being spiritually fulfilled in the passing of Laws to formally prevent anyone/any country not espousing Capitalistic principles and methods to be excluded and marginalized from global economic activity, etc.

Can you please expand on point number 2, SDA martyrdom. Specifically:
1. Which SDAs, and where, since this is already happening in some parts of the world.
2. Why single out SDAs at all? Why not look at Christian martyrdom generally?
3. Please show that Seventh-day Adventist martyrdom is specifically prophecied in Scripture.

PS: I do not accept the "Remnant Church" idea, or that the SDA church is the "Remnant Church", since Scripture does not speak of a remnant church, but rather a remnant people. So ixnay that arguement.

By the way, in case this may be helpful, in understanding and presenting this spiritual, thus eschatological application of EGW’s prophecies in the, correspondingly, currently applicable eschatological light brought forth in the Bible, I am actually not undermining or destroying her writings or statement, but rather, like Christ’s Olivet discourse seeing them to also contain this divine facet of also having a three-tiers capability of Local|Historical|Eschatological. Thus for EGW’s case, that would be:

Local = Her day until 1908 (see why here)
Historical = 1908 to (as I Biblically understand it) 1996 [also(?) of “Great Week of Time” = 6000 years??]
Eschatological = 1996ff

It is in this sense that I also fully understand and uphold EGW’s directly inspired saying that her ‘writings will continue to speak until the end of time’ i.e., in one of these Biblical applicable forms.

If you follow the prophetic Remnant concept in Rev 12. It, symbolically depicted, starts of in Rev 12:1 describing the “Church” (equal “woman”) (cf. Matt 16:18) that Jesus Christ established based upon the OT passing covenant teachings now exercised in “Righteousness” through the Twelve Apostles. Following the GC period of direct Satanic opposition (Rev 12:2-16) i.e., from Christ victorious death on the cross (vss. 2-4; cf. 7-13a) through the Apostles’ day (vs. 5) and then through Christian Church History (vss. 6) including Reformatory periods (vss. 13b-16), the “remnant” that is spoken of is the preservedly restored spiritually direct descendant of that priorly established “Church”. So that “Remnant” which keeps the Commandments of God and hold/have the testimony of Jesus (=SOP Rev 19:10) is by these direct associations a “Remnant Church of Christ Apostolic Church’. So God’s “Remnant Church” is indeed to be a congruous and homogenous, formal organization as it was in the days of the Apostles, as established by Christ and which others are called to concretely join (John 10:16). Hope this helps!

If I follow? What does that mean? Your post made absolutely no sense. It was simply a mish-mash of pompus-sounding fluff, half-formed ideas, and non-existant words. It did not present a single concrete point worthy of discussion.



Not a bit.

My “If you follow..” statement, is indeed understood by what I continued to say, namely that: ‘...the prophetic Remnant concept in Rev 12, it, being symbolically depicted, starts off in Rev 12:1...’ (I corrected the typos in this quote).

So since I know it is exegetically sound, rightly interpreting prophetic symbols as identified in the Bible, you’ll have substantiate your ranting response with some hard evidence. I.e., why my points are not valid. That is a quite involved prophetic study which I tried to summarize in one paragraph. I thus indeed did not fully develop all of these points. I thought you were/would be familiar with this widely-known, at least in SDA Circles which includes this SDA Forum, prophecy already. So apparently what seems to be “pompous to you” was because I was speaking from a point of view that what I was going to say would be readily understood.

Nonetheless is a full, edited and slightly explained/expanded repost. (I recommend looking up an, e.g., online SDA Prophetic Seminar study on the Remnant Church for a full exposition on the prophecy):



The main point I was making was that the Christian Church was symbolically depicted in this Prophecy as being a Church (Rev 12:1) and its surviving “Remnant” is spoken of at the end in Rev 12:17 (= ‘the rest/remnant/remaining portion of her seed (i.e., the “child” in vs. 1). Thus it too is rightly considered as a Church as it was in its earlier, initial mention Church (vs. 1).

Also, as this is manifestly crucial here: Are you an SDA, a Progressive SDA or of another Christian Denomination? I have previously already discussed many point against the Remnant Church teaching stemming from this post.

I Cor. 1:10-17. I am a Christian who chooses to fellowship with Seventh-day Adventists.

To be exegetically accurate here, Paul was not address a Corinthian Church that was divided over doctrinal differences, but only private allegiances (i.e., who they were baptized by) as this also meant to them that they had received a particular “anointing” from their baptizer. So Paul was not addressing a denominationally divided Christian Church, as it is today, and moreoverly not telling them to ‘not to consider themselves divided despite their doctrinal differences’. For a true unification to occur, these crucial teaching, which affect practical practises, must be Biblically resolved and brought into line with what they Bible actually teaches. So Paul counsel to today’s already fractured Church would most likely instead be: “I wish that there be unity amongst you in the original truth that was delivered to you’.



I can understand that, however if you probe more deeply the reason why you are “choosing” to do so, vs. another Christian Denomination, you will probably begin to understand the concept of a Remnant Church, - i.e., a current Church/denomination that is comprehensively the closest match to the Apostolic original.

Do not be so arrogant as to presume to have the right to explain the reasons for my choices.

Not being “arrogant” nor even “explaining” anything. Just following the inevitable, implicated, sequitur logic here, especially given the 5 distinctive/distinguishing truths of SDA’s , namely: The Sabbath, Sanctuary, Spirit of Prophecy, (Manner of) Second Coming and State of the Dead, all of which usually drive people who do not believe in them away from “fellowship” with the SDA Church. So... don’t put words in my mouth nor mal-construe my intentions! Man, are you hyper-sensitive and touchy on this issue!!!

Just as an aside, of the 5 doctrines above only the Sanctuary may (possibly) be considered either distinctive or distinguishing of SDA theology, and the Investigative Judgement was not included. The other doctrines we share with one or more Christian denominations or religious groups

That may technically be true however, I have yet to see a Spirit of Prohecy gift manifested in another denomination as it was in EGW (2000 vision, valid and foreseeing counsels, works productions including an inspired commentary on my parts of the Bible, etc, not to mention the accompanying manifestation of the physical signs that validate the genuine gift.

The Investigative Judgement in inclusively understood in the Sanctuary Teaching because, as it was annually seen in Ancient Israel, it was this “temple cleansing and judgement session” that capped Israel’s religious calender each year (=Dan 8:14).

Of the top of my head, I cannot think of another denomination that has more than 2 of those 5 teachings (mainly State of the Dead/Sabbath & Second Coming) however without the other 3 (Sanctuary, SOP), the other 2/3 are greatly deficient in their prophetic contribution (e.g., properly understanding Daniel and Revelation, among others). So given the interconnected of these 5 teachings as found in the SDA Church, one really would have to believe in all 5 of them to consider the SDA Church and its message (as a undivided whole) to be preaching the (full) Truth of the Bible.