Eagles or vultures? Again, there are places in the KJV where the translators didn't get it right. But doctrinally speaking it is almost always right. One exception is the word "sacrifice" in Daniel.

EW 74
Then I saw in relation to the "daily" (Dan. 8:12) that the word "sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong to the text . . . {EW 74.2}

Tom, in relation to John’s response to my post (83857) I am referring to his post (83888). All but the first paragraph of my post is from the SOP. The edit button is missing and I could not go back and place her comments in quotes.

TE: MM, please see post #83913. I addressed your concerns there. If you didn't understand something I wrote there, you can ask me something specific.

1. Asking me to pick what best describes my thought from a list you have composed is pointless.

MM: Please humor me. The list is from SC. Here it is again.



2. My point regarding the NIV and 1 John 3:9 was that is says "No one who is born of God will continue to sin" (this is from memory; that's close if not perfect) which you, for some reason, interpret to mean "No one who is born of God will not continue to sin."



3. . . . the character is not comprised of the occasional misdeed or occasional good deed. A person can be a born again Christ and occasionally commit an occasional misdeed, a sin.

MM: I agree.

………………………….

TE: There's a verse which reads, "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit." (Matt. 7:18). This doesn't mean that no good tree ever in the history of man has produced a bad fruit, but rather that, as a general practice, good trees to not produce bad fruit. Indeed, it is the fact that they, as a general practice, produce good fruit that makes them good trees. Similarly one who is born of God cannot sin. In the same way that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The born again person is not characterized by a life of sin. It's not saying that a born again is not able to commit a sin.

MM: It never occurred to me to read what Jesus taught in the way you just suggested: 1) that the good tree - bad tree metaphor actually means “every” good tree can produce bad fruit and “every” bad tree can produce good fruit, 2) that this interpretation helps explain why 1 John 3:1-10 cannot possibly mean born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, 3) that it means they can commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus.

Matthew
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

MM: Does this next quote, and the ones following it, also support your interpretation of the good tree - bad tree metaphor?

UL 154
The fruit of the tree testifies if it is a good or corrupt tree. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. By their fruits ye shall know them. Let us so speak and so labor that our fruit may be unto righteousness and we letting our light shine forth in good works. Profession is nothing. A godly life alone will God approve. {UL 154.3}

It appears you do not wish to own what you wrote or quoted.

I can't make sense of your last post, MM. Sorry. The only thing I understood from it was your repeated request that I choose something that represents my thought from a list you composed. I don't see the point in this.

You seem to have the idea that one either exhibits sinful behavior all the time, or does so none of the time. Either everything a person does is sinful behavior, or none of it is. My point is that this is not the case. Neither Scripture nor our experience bears this out.

Nothing on your list is looked to be presenting the point I was making. Everything on your list appeared to me to be dealing with the necessity of being converted.


Tom

MM, John's post #83888 was very well written, I thought, and presented excellent points and arguments. I haven't seen that you have addressed any of these.

JB: It appears you do not wish to own what you wrote or quoted.

MM: I agree with with what Sister White wrote. I disagree with your critique of what she wrote.

TE: You seem to have the idea that one either exhibits sinful behavior all the time, or does so none of the time. Either everything a person does is sinful behavior, or none of it is. My point is that this is not the case. Neither Scripture nor our experience bears this out.

MM: Again, I believe everything we do before we experience the miracle of rebirth is tainted with selfishness. And, I believe everything we do as a result of abiding in Jesus is righteous. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7)

TE: Nothing on your list is looked to be presenting the point I was making. Everything on your list appeared to me to be dealing with the necessity of being converted.

MM: I posted the list in response to your claim that unconverted people perform good works which count as good works from God's perspective. The following quote is interesting n light of what you believe about it.

SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

.................

MM: Tom, please help me understand the differences between the NIV and the KJV in the following questions. Thank you.

1. What is the difference between “continue to sin” and “doth not commit sin”?

2. What is the difference between “he cannot go on sinning” and “he cannot sin”?

.................

TE: There's a verse which reads, "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit." (Matt. 7:18). This doesn't mean that no good tree ever in the history of man has produced a bad fruit, but rather that, as a general practice, good trees to not produce bad fruit. Indeed, it is the fact that they, as a general practice, produce good fruit that makes them good trees. Similarly one who is born of God cannot sin. In the same way that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. The born again person is not characterized by a life of sin. It's not saying that a born again is not able to commit a sin.

MM: Here's what I hear you saying (please correct me if I've misunderstood you):

1) the good tree - bad tree metaphor means “every” good tree can produce bad fruit and “every” bad tree can produce good fruit,

2) this insight explains why 1 John 3:1-10 cannot possibly mean born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus,

3) instead, 1 John 3:1-10 means born again believers can commit a known sin while they are actively abiding in Jesus.

MM, you're reframing our dialog, having me make claims I'm not making and saying things I'm not saying. I chose my words carefully. You should stick to what I'm actually saying.

Yes, you misunderstood my point with the trees. I suggest you re-read what I wrote. It was clear.

You're saying everything so differently than what I am, I don't know how to continue from here, unless you backtrack and deal with points I'm actually making and things I'm actually saying.

I'd be interested in your responding to JB's post, which I thought was excellent. (83888) Perhaps you can understand JB better than you have understood me. We could continue our discussion on the basis of that post.

I thought of another way of trying to make my point, so forget about my previous attempt, as it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.

You've brought out several times that the process of being born again is a length, protracted process. I think you see the process as follows:

a)The Holy Spirit works with the unbeliever to give up sinful habits.
b)The unbeliever learns about sinful habits, and gives them up little by little (this is the lengthy, protracted process) until he's finally ready to have every cultivated habit since birth revealed to him, and confess them all (not including exceptions to the rule).
c)At this point the person becomes born again, and ceases doing any sinful behavior, as long as he abides in Jesus.

I'm pretty sure this is accurate, according to what you have been sharing, but please correct my characterization of your beliefs if you disagree with anything I've said above.

I'll guess I'll stop here and just ask if I've correctly understood your ideas.

a) The Holy Spirit works with the unbeliever to give up sinful habits.

MM: Not “give up”, but rather the Holy Spirit influences them to “confess”, in light of the cross, their sinful habits and practices. They admit that their cultivated habits are sinful and need to be crucified.

b) The unbeliever learns about sinful habits, and gives them up little by little (this is the lengthy, protracted process) until he's finally ready to have every cultivated habit since birth revealed to him, and confess them all (not including exceptions to the rule).

MM: In normal cases, ones not involving exceptions to the rule, the Holy Spirit carefully reveals to them, in light of the cross, their cultivated sinful habits. He does not reveal to them the sinful traits and tendencies that they inherited at birth but have not yet cultivated.

c) At this point the person becomes born again, and ceases doing any sinful behavior, as long as he abides in Jesus.

MM: The Holy Spirit empowers them to crucify their old man sinful habits when the last sinful habit is revealed to them and confessed. At this point they are born again. They will not commit a known sin, repeat a former sinful habit, nor will they cultivate new sinful habits, while abiding in Jesus.

They are not incapable of committing a known sin, but to do so they must first stop abiding in Jesus, stop walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, revert back to the mind of the old man, all of which happens the instant they take their eyes off Jesus – and then all they can do is sin.

Repentance restores the relationship their sin severed, and they resume abiding in Jesus, growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

…………………………….

MM: Tom, please help me understand the differences between the NIV and the KJV in the following questions. Thank you.

1. What is the difference between “continue to sin” and “doth not commit sin”?

2. What is the difference between “he cannot go on sinning” and “he cannot sin”?

………………………………

MM: Here's what I hear you saying (please correct me if I've misunderstood you):

1) the good tree - bad tree metaphor means “every” good tree can produce bad fruit and “every” bad tree can produce good fruit,

2) this insight explains why 1 John 3:1-10 cannot possibly mean born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus,

3) instead, 1 John 3:1-10 means born again believers can commit a known sin while they are actively abiding in Jesus.