It is verse 9 that stipulates the condition of not sinning.



It doesn't say, "whoever abides in Jesus cannot sin." It says, "he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

So if you interpret "cannot sin" to mean "is unable to commit even one sin," then this means that no one who is born of God is able to commit even one sin. It's not talking about abiding in Jesus here. It's talking about being born again.

But verse 9 does not exist in a vacuum. The context matters. John is talking about sinning and not sinning and abiding in Jesus and not abiding in Jesus.

It doesn't say they lose the ability to choose to stop abiding in Jesus and to revert back to their sinful ways. It simply says they do not and cannot commit a sin while choosing to abide in Jesus.

I thought we agreed on these points. You cited the good tree - bad tree metaphor to prove that born again believers do not sin while abiding in the vine. We agreed on this point, as well. or, did I misunderstand you?

1 John
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not" = "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"

Well MM, this is a typical problem we have in communication with you. Try and think this through before you answer.

You state:
The Law is a transcript of God’s character.
The law reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy.
It defines and describes righteousness perfectly.
The gospel of Christ alone can free him from the condemnation or the defilement of sin.

Therefore the sum of what you stated is:
God’s character reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy.
God’s righteousness provides no remedy for sin.
The gospel of Christ must therefore be outside of God’s character.
Christ must be unlike God’s character.

MM: I disagree with this characterization of Sister White’s comments.

MM, this has nothing to do with EW. What this has to do is with your correlation of your first paragraph and your EW quote which is not in context with your pretext. So the sum is that it is your interpretation and implication, that the law which has no remedy for sin is the perfect and complete transcript of God's character; and that the gospel is something therefore apart from God's character/righteousness/law.

Obviously the law this is speaking of is not the same as the one of which you spoke above, which provides no remedy for sin.

MM: I disagree with this characterization of Sister White’s comments.

MM, this is plain scripture here; right!? I did not contend with this scripture but agreed with it as you see below. I pointed out that it is obvious that this scripture does not agree with your pretext that God's character/righteousness/law provides no remedy for sin. This scripture which you quoted, says that it does. And, it does when that which you have omitted is reunited, as stated below.

What you have forgotten or omitted in your first concept of the law is the same thing which the Jews omitted in Christ’s day.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.



Therefore what follows is:

• Christ is the express image of God’s character.
  Christ’s character is perfect exposition of righteousness.
  Christ’s character includes the weightier matters of the law: judgment, mercy, faith.
  The gospel is the full exposition of God’s character with the weightier matters in place.

MM: I disagree with this characterization of Sister White’s comments.

MM, my statements are fully in agreement with the quoote you supplied. What are you disagreeing with?
You are likely disagreeing with what I wrote that follows about what you did. It has to do with your interpretation and application of it. Your first paragraph establishes the pretext for what you correlated and associated with those thoughts, and that is where you present that God's character/righteousness/law provides no remedy for sin. But, I have shown from the quotes you gave and the scriptures that the gospel of Christ is certainly that character/righteousness/law of God which is the remedy and salvation from sin.

What you have done MM is exactly what the Jews did, and why they crucified the Lord. By separating from the law and God’s character the weightier matters, you have established the character of Satan in the place of God.

• They took the law of God and separated from it the weightier matters of the law.
  You took the law of God and separated from it the weightier matters of the law.
  
  They formed a righteousness according to the law devoid of judgment, mercy and faith; and said this is God.
  You formed a righteousness according to the law devoid of judgment, mercy and faith; and said this is God.
  
  They according to their righteousness, and their interpretation of law crucified the Lord of glory.
  You according to your righteousness, and your interpretation of law require the Lord of glory to be crucified.

Christ came to reveal the truth of the law and God’s character; the remedy for sin; so that we may be saved.
Christ came to save just from such a concept of the law which is devoid of judgment, mercy and faith.

I just like you to note that the word “judgment” here means something different than what you think judgment to be. For in this judgment, mercy and faith are the weightier matters.

Thus in Christ who is the express image of the invisible God it is fully fulfilled:
Psa 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

There is a law which has no remedy for sin. That law is the letter of God's law without the spirit of God; without judgment, mercy and faith. Such a law is of the spirit of Satan and produces death. It ought to be obvious that when one removes the weightier matters from God's law, it is no longer the transcript of God's character; but has at such time become "the law of sin and death".

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Now which law shall you fulfill?

No, that's not what the verse says. As I've pointed out several times now, it says that the one who is born again cannot sin. You are mixing the phrase from one verse and combining it with another, and then claiming "this is what it says." But it doesn't.

You may content that this is what it means, but it certainly is not what it says.

The context is not about abiding in Christ, or not abiding in Christ, but about loving one's neighbor. If you read the epistle, you can see this emphasis from beginning to end. John simply doesn't have the emphasis nor does he have in mind the point you are trying to make.

I'd suggest reading the epistle from beginning to end at one sitting (it's short, so this is easy to do) to get a flavor of what John is talking about. He is talking about love throughout. We saw perfect love when Christ dwelt amongst us. Our hands felt it, our eyes saw it.

Christ, the embodiment of love, left a commandment, that we should love one another as He has loved us. This was the burden of John's heart. This was what he talked about for the whole epistle.



I'd like to reiterate so it's clear to you that this is not what the verse says. It says that one who is born of God cannot sin, NOT one who is abiding in Christ cannot sin.

Now a bit later you wrote:



This you could make a case for. And if it said "Whosoever abideth in him cannot commit sin" you could make a case that this = "Whosoever is born again cannot sin" (which it actually does say). But it doesn't. So you cannot make this case.

What you're saying is actually backwards from the text. You are saying that a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus. The text says that a born again person cannot sin. So one could conclude that a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again, but not the other way around. Twisting it is attempting to make the text say something it doesn't say.

MM: Not “give up”, but rather the Holy Spirit influences them to “confess”, in light of the cross, their sinful habits and practices. They admit that their cultivated habits are sinful and need to be crucified.

TE: They confess them, but don't give them up? Is that what you're saying?

MM: Not “give up” in the sense that they are “crucified”. My list of SC quotes explains that unconverted people are motivated to make outward corrections to their behavior, but I believe that such things are not the same thing as crucifying them.

………………………

MM: The Holy Spirit empowers them to crucify their old man sinful habits when the last sinful habit is revealed to them and confessed. At this point they are born again.

TE: Ok, so you're definition of being born again is having the last sinful habit revealed and confessed. (excluding exceptions). Being born again has nothing to do with the heart being transformed? Or God waits until the last sin is confessed, and at that moment transforms the heart? I'm not getting where the transformation of the heart fits in.

MM: They experience the miracle of rebirth the instant their old man is crucified. It is at this precise point that God “implants” within them the sinless seed or mind of the new man. It comes complete with all the “fruits” and “righteous attributes” of God’s character. “Not one is missing.” They receive a “heart of flesh”.

It doesn't seem to me you are being consistent in what you're saying here. You said that the conversion process is a lengthy, protracted process where each sinful habit cultivated since birth is revealed by the Holy Spirit and confessed. My impression from what you said before is that this legnthy and protraced process was begun before the person is born again, and only completed when the last sin is confessed. So if it begins earlier, then the earlier work must include a complete confession, including crucifying them, or else it's of no value. There's two possibilities:

a)Some of them are crucified before the person is born again, during a preliminary part of the protracted process

or

b)All of them are crucifed at once, at the time the sinner is born again.

If it's b), then the Holy Spirit would have to reveal *every* sinful habit cultivated since birth at the time a person is born again.

……………………………..

MM: They will not commit a known sin, repeat a former sinful habit, nor will they cultivate new sinful habits, while abiding in Jesus.

TE: Which means what? That is, what does "abiding in Jesus" mean?

MM: Jesus explained what it means by using the vine-branch metaphor. He also said, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)

This is completely circular, right? You are maintaining that:

1)If a person abides in Jesus, he cannot sin.

and

2)To abide in Jesus means to keep HIs commandments.

So this means that as long as one keeps HIs commandments, one cannot sin. And since sin is transgression of the law, this means that as long as one keeps His commandments, one cannot break them.

That's not really saying much, is it?

Quote:
John
15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.


MM: The fruit of abiding in Jesus is fruit bearing, that is, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, imitating the example of Jesus. It is akin to the “mystery of godliness”. Exactly how God unites divinity and humanity in human flesh is a mystery. The righteous fruit we bear is evidence that God is blending divinity and humanity.

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

To abide in Jesus means 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

This seems pretty vague. It still seems like you're saying as long as we don't sin we cannot sin.

The phrase "like magic" is an interesting one to choose. That's something I find in the theories you have, is that you present them to be "like magic." (you also often use expressions like "nobody knows why" "it's a myster" "no reason is given" and so forth) I think this is accurate, in terms of how you perceive things. I believe God wants us to have a faith founded on sound arguments and reason.

It's intersting that justce and mercy are linked together. (the KJV has "judgment," but this, in our parlance, is actually "justice," as the NKJV has it).

It is thought be some that justice and mercy have nothing to do with one another, but both are a part of God's character, and, as this verse you have cited demonstrates, both are incorporated in God's law.

Here are a couple of nice texts which bring out the relationship between mercy and justice:

JB: MM, this has nothing to do with EW. What this has to do is with your correlation of your first paragraph and your EW quote which is not in context with your pretext. So the sum is that it is your interpretation and implication, that the law which has no remedy for sin is the perfect and complete transcript of God's character; and that the gospel is something therefore apart from God's character/righteousness/law.

MM: John, I do not believe the gospel is something apart from God’s character or righteousness or law. God’s law (10Cs) is a transcript of God’s character. However, the law (10Cs) does not provide a remedy for sin, and in this way the law (10Cs) of God does not reflect the character or kingdom of God.

……………………

JB: MM, this is plain scripture here; right!? I did not contend with this scripture but agreed with it as you see below. I pointed out that it is obvious that this scripture does not agree with your pretext that God's character/righteousness/law provides no remedy for sin. This scripture which you quoted, says that it does. And, it does when that which you have omitted is reunited, as stated below.

MM: I do not believe the law (10Cs) of God in and of itself can convert us. When Jesus spoke of the “weightier matters of the law” He was referring to law in general, not to the Ten Commandments (10Cs). “The law shows us our sins, as a mirror shows us that our face is not clean. The mirror has no power to cleanse the face; that is not its office. So it is with the law. It points out our defects, and condemns us, but it has no power to save us.” (RC 55)

……………………….

JB: MM, my statements are fully in agreement with the quoote you supplied. What are you disagreeing with?

MM: Here’s what I posted:



JB: You are likely disagreeing with what I wrote that follows about what you did. It has to do with your interpretation and application of it. Your first paragraph establishes the pretext for what you correlated and associated with those thoughts, and that is where you present that God's character/righteousness/law provides no remedy for sin. But, I have shown from the quotes you gave and the scriptures that the gospel of Christ is certainly that character/righteousness/law of God which is the remedy and salvation from sin.

MM: Again, I do not believe the Ten Commandments (10Cs) can save or convert us. In this way the law (10Cs) is unlike God.

…………………..

JB: There is a law which has no remedy for sin. That law is the letter of God's law without the spirit of God; without judgment, mercy and faith. Such a law is of the spirit of Satan and produces death. It ought to be obvious that when one removes the weightier matters from God's law, it is no longer the transcript of God's character; but has at such time become "the law of sin and death".

MM: Again, the law (10Cs) does not provide a remedy for sin. “The law reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy.” (GC 467) “His blood is the only remedy for sin.” (FLB 102) The “law of sin and death” Paul spoke about is not the law (10Cs) divorced from weightier matters. The word “law” in this case is referring to a principle.

TE: So one could conclude that a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again . . .

MM: That’s exactly what I believe John means in 1 John 3:1-10.

…………………………

TE: b) All of them are crucifed at once, at the time the sinner is born again. If it's b), then the Holy Spirit would have to reveal *every* sinful habit cultivated since birth at the time a person is born again.

MM: I believe the Holy Spirit reveals to people their sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the “long . . . patient, protracted process” (DA 172) of conversion, a process which can lead to conversion and rebirth if people “do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.” (MB 76) He reveals them no faster than they are able to handle it.

During the process of conversion they “confess” their sinful habits, but they do not “crucify” them until the instant they are born again. They are not revealed all at once in an instant, but they are crucified all at once in an instant. “One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.” (SC 29)

……………………….

MM: The fruit of abiding in Jesus is fruit bearing, that is, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, imitating the example of Jesus. It is akin to the “mystery of godliness”. Exactly how God unites divinity and humanity in human flesh is a mystery. The righteous fruit we bear is evidence that God is blending divinity and humanity.

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

MM: To abide in Jesus means 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

TE: This seems pretty vague. It still seems like you're saying as long as we don't sin we cannot sin.

MM: That sounds circular to me, too. Jesus said, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine.” (John 7:17) In other words, we must first obey God to determine if it is doctrinally right, and not the other way around.

FE 125
For "if any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." If you would know the mystery of godliness, you must follow the plain word of truth,--feeling or no feeling, emotion or no emotion. Obedience must be rendered from a sense of principle, and the right must be pursued under all circumstances. {FE 125.2}

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

………………………..

TE: The phrase "like magic" is an interesting one to choose. That's something I find in the theories you have, is that you present them to be "like magic." (you also often use expressions like "nobody knows why" "it's a myster" "no reason is given" and so forth) I think this is accurate, in terms of how you perceive things. I believe God wants us to have a faith founded on sound arguments and reason.

MM: I borrowed the expression “like magic” from Sister White. It seems appropriate to me. I also borrowed the word “mystery” from the apostle Paul.



MM: Sister White goes on to say the following about the operation of the science of salvation:

TMK 168
The work of redemption is a marvelous work; it is a mystery in the universe of God. {TMK 168.4}

DA 494
The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience. {DA 494.4}

TE: So one could conclude that a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again . . .

MM: That’s exactly what I believe John means in 1 John 3:1-10.

But this is backwards from what you say. What you say is that a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus.

…………………………

TE: b) All of them are crucifed at once, at the time the sinner is born again. If it's b), then the Holy Spirit would have to reveal *every* sinful habit cultivated since birth at the time a person is born again.

MM: I believe the Holy Spirit reveals to people their sinful habits, in light of the cross, during the “long . . . patient, protracted process” (DA 172) of conversion, a process which can lead to conversion and rebirth if people “do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.” (MB 76) He reveals them no faster than they are able to handle it.

During the process of conversion they “confess” their sinful habits, but they do not “crucify” them until the instant they are born again. They are not revealed all at once in an instant, but they are crucified all at once in an instant. “One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character.” (SC 29)

During the time that they are confessing their sin, are they exhibiting sinful behavior? That is, is their act of confessing their sin, in and of itself, during the time before they've become born again, sinful behavior?
……………………….

MM: The fruit of abiding in Jesus is fruit bearing, that is, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, imitating the example of Jesus. It is akin to the “mystery of godliness”. Exactly how God unites divinity and humanity in human flesh is a mystery. The righteous fruit we bear is evidence that God is blending divinity and humanity.

MH 180
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

MM: To abide in Jesus means 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

TE: This seems pretty vague. It still seems like you're saying as long as we don't sin we cannot sin.

MM: That sounds circular to me, too. Jesus said, “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine.” (John 7:17) In other words, we must first obey God to determine if it is doctrinally right, and not the other way around.

Isn't Jesus saying that if a person is willing to know what is truth He will know? He's not saying we should do something we aren't convinced is true, is He?

FE 125
For "if any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." If you would know the mystery of godliness, you must follow the plain word of truth,--feeling or no feeling, emotion or no emotion. Obedience must be rendered from a sense of principle, and the right must be pursued under all circumstances. {FE 125.2}

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

Isn't this just describing the characteristics of one who is born again? What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus? Do you think John had your ideas in mind when he wrote about abiding in Jesus? (I don't see any evidence of this in his epistle, or in anything he wrote, which is why I'm curious. He seems to have had other ideas in mind in what he wrote. Have you considered reading his epistle for the purpose of getting what his ideas were?

………………………..

TE: The phrase "like magic" is an interesting one to choose. That's something I find in the theories you have, is that you present them to be "like magic." (you also often use expressions like "nobody knows why" "it's a mystery" "no reason is given" and so forth) I think this is accurate, in terms of how you perceive things. I believe God wants us to have a faith founded on sound arguments and reason.

MM: I borrowed the expression “like magic” from Sister White. It seems appropriate to me. I also borrowed the word “mystery” from the apostle Paul.

You are using the words differently, especially in the case of Paul. Two of the SOP quotes use "magic" similarly to how you did (the second and third one; the other two have a completely different meaning for "magic" in mind than you used). Paul never used "mystery" as in "I'm clueless. I don't understand. It's a mystery."

In your "like magic" quote above, it appears to me that you are making a list of things we have to do to qualify for the magic to happen. If we do everything on the list, then the magic appears. Is that right?

Quote:
The springs of heavenly peace and joy, unsealed in the soul of the teacher by the magic words of Inspiration, will become a mighty river of influence, to bless all who connect with him. {CT 171.2}

Within the past few years, doors have been thrown open as if by magic, and men and women are needed to enter these doors and begin earnest work for the salvation of souls. {CT 524.1}

[Systematic benevolence] has worked like magic. {4bSG 121.2}

The world was awakened from the slumber of ages, as from land to land were sounded the magic words, "Religious Liberty." {SR 338.4}


MM: Sister White goes on to say the following about the operation of the science of salvation:

TMK 168
The work of redemption is a marvelous work; it is a mystery in the universe of God. {TMK 168.4}

DA 494
The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience. {DA 494.4}

Her point is that it goes beyond human reason and understanding. Her point is not that we can't understand it at all. She was not using the phrase in the sense of "I don't know what's going on here. It's a mystery." That is, "mystery" does not mean "cluelessness." It means "unfathomably great."

She often wrote of the importance that we understand the reasons for what we believe, and be able to explain these reasons. Here's a portion of it:

TE: So one could conclude that a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again . . .

MM: That’s exactly what I believe John means in 1 John 3:1-10.

TE: But this is backwards from what you say. What you say is that a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus.

MM: (1) “a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again” and (2) “a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus” mean, in my mind, the exact same thing.

The “person” in (1) is, by necessity, born again. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be true. Thus, it could be stated – “a born again person who abides in Jesus cannot sin”. Similarly, (2) could be expressed in the exact same way, that is, it could be stated - “a born again person who abides in Jesus cannot sin”.

……………………

TE: During the time that they are confessing their sin, are they exhibiting sinful behavior? That is, is their act of confessing their sin, in and of itself, during the time before they've become born again, sinful behavior?

MM: Not necessarily. The influence of the Holy Spirit is powerful during the process of conversion. It can motivate people to give up certain sinful habits before they actually crucify them. It can also motivate them to adopt certain behaviors that are good. But before they begin partaking of the divine nature everything they do is tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness.

SC 17
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. {SC 27.1}

SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

…………………….

TE: Isn't Jesus saying that if a person is willing to know what is truth He will know? He's not saying we should do something we aren't convinced is true, is He?

MM: I think the SOP confirms the idea that we must doers of the word if we hope to learn more of the word. We step out in faith trusting that the truth will set us free. Fruit follows faith.

…………………….

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

TE: Isn't this just describing the characteristics of one who is born again? What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus?

MM: I believe it describes what it means to abide in Jesus. It’s what born again people do to continue abiding in Jesus.

………………………..

TE: In your "like magic" quote above, it appears to me that you are making a list of things we have to do to qualify for the magic to happen. If we do everything on the list, then the magic appears. Is that right?

MM: The “magic” continues to happen so long as we continue to do those things. The list, of course, is not exhaustive. By the way, the “magic” I’m talking about is the fact we are able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. The "why" is not mysterious. It's the "how" that is unexplainable.

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TMK 168
The work of redemption is a marvelous work; it is a mystery in the universe of God. {TMK 168.4}

DA 494
The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience. {DA 494.4}

TE: Her point is that it goes beyond human reason and understanding. Her point is not that we can't understand it at all. She was not using the phrase in the sense of "I don't know what's going on here. It's a mystery." That is, "mystery" does not mean "cluelessness." It means "unfathomably great."

MM: “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” To me this means that there are parts of it that cannot be completely explained.

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TE: She often wrote of the importance that we understand the reasons for what we believe, and be able to explain these reasons. Here's a portion of it:

MM: This principle applies to everything except for those aspects of the science of salvation that we cannot explain. Just because we cannot explain it doesn’t mean we cannot experience it.

TSB 86, 87
God has made every provision that they should be intelligent Christians, filled with a knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding. A theoretical knowledge of the truth is essential, but the knowledge of the greatest truth will not save us; our knowledge must be practical. God's people must not only know His will, but they must practice it. Many will be purged out from the numbers of those who know the truth, because they are not sanctified by it. {TSB 86.4}