TE: So one could conclude that a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again . . .

MM: That’s exactly what I believe John means in 1 John 3:1-10.

TE: But this is backwards from what you say. What you say is that a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus.

MM: (1) “a person who abides in Christ cannot sin as long as he is born again” and (2) “a born again person cannot sin as long as he abides in Jesus” mean, in my mind, the exact same thing.

The “person” in (1) is, by necessity, born again. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be true. Thus, it could be stated – “a born again person who abides in Jesus cannot sin”. Similarly, (2) could be expressed in the exact same way, that is, it could be stated - “a born again person who abides in Jesus cannot sin”.

The problem is that John says that one who is born again does not sin. He does not qualify that by saying "who abides in Jesus." He just simply states, flat out, a person who is born again cannot sin. He cannot sin because he is born again (that's the reason John gives). Even if he doesn't abide in Jesus, he cannot sin, so long as he is born again (this is the logical conclusion of the statement that one who is born again cannot sin). The reason he cannot sin is because he is born again, not because he abides in Jesus.

……………………

TE: During the time that they are confessing their sin, are they exhibiting sinful behavior? That is, is their act of confessing their sin, in and of itself, during the time before they've become born again, sinful behavior?

MM: Not necessarily. The influence of the Holy Spirit is powerful during the process of conversion. It can motivate people to give up certain sinful habits before they actually crucify them. It can also motivate them to adopt certain behaviors that are good. But before they begin partaking of the divine nature everything they do is tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness.

We haven't been considering the question of selfishness, so there's no reason to bring that up. We've been discussing the idea that before being born again one can only exhibit sinful behavior, which is what you were saying. Now if a person responds to the Holy Spirit before being born again, and this response is not sinful behavior, it should be easy for you to see that your statement is false (although I don't expect you to admit this).

SC 17
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. {SC 27.1}

SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

…………………….

TE: Isn't Jesus saying that if a person is willing to know what is truth He will know? He's not saying we should do something we aren't convinced is true, is He?

MM: I think the SOP confirms the idea that we must doers of the word if we hope to learn more of the word. We step out in faith trusting that the truth will set us free. Fruit follows faith.

That fruit follows faith agrees with the perspective that I've been sharing. That one must perform a bunch of rules on a list before being magically empowered by Jesus seems different to me. Why can't we just say that what's needed is faith, and that faith will be demonstrated by its fruit (such as the things on your list)? Are the items of the list prerequisites, or fruit?

…………………….

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.

TE: Isn't this just describing the characteristics of one who is born again? What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus?

MM: I believe it describes what it means to abide in Jesus. It’s what born again people do to continue abiding in Jesus.

What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus? Can you be born again and not abide in Jesus?

………………………..

TE: In your "like magic" quote above, it appears to me that you are making a list of things we have to do to qualify for the magic to happen. If we do everything on the list, then the magic appears. Is that right?

MM: The “magic” continues to happen so long as we continue to do those things.

Why can't we say the magic continues as long as we have faith? Why aren't the things on the list the fruit of faith?

The list, of course, is not exhaustive. By the way, the “magic” I’m talking about is the fact we are able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. The "why" is not mysterious. It's the "how" that is unexplainable.

(snip)

TE: She often wrote of the importance that we understand the reasons for what we believe, and be able to explain these reasons. Here's a portion of it:

MM: This principle applies to everything except for those aspects of the science of salvation that we cannot explain.

The problem I see is if you don't understand something, you assume that it can't be understood, as opposed to thinking that you just don't understand it. IOW, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean no one can understand it. The fact that you find something to be a mystery and unexplainable doesn't mean it really is unexplainable. It could just be that you don't know how to explain it.

Just because we cannot explain it doesn’t mean we cannot experience it.

This is true. It's also true that it doesn't mean that someone else cannot explain it.

TSB 86, 87
God has made every provision that they should be intelligent Christians, filled with a knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding. A theoretical knowledge of the truth is essential, but the knowledge of the greatest truth will not save us; our knowledge must be practical. God's people must not only know His will, but they must practice it. Many will be purged out from the numbers of those who know the truth, because they are not sanctified by it. {TSB 86.4}

TE: The problem is that John says that one who is born again does not sin. He does not qualify that by saying "who abides in Jesus." He just simply states, flat out, a person who is born again cannot sin. He cannot sin because he is born again (that's the reason John gives). Even if he doesn't abide in Jesus, he cannot sin, so long as he is born again (this is the logical conclusion of the statement that one who is born again cannot sin). The reason he cannot sin is because he is born again, not because he abides in Jesus.

MM: Are you suggesting that 1 John 3:9 implies born again believers do not abide in Jesus? It says he does not sin “for his seed remaineth in him.”

………………………

TET: We haven't been considering the question of selfishness, so there's no reason to bring that up. We've been discussing the idea that before being born again one can only exhibit sinful behavior, which is what you were saying. Now if a person responds to the Holy Spirit before being born again, and this response is not sinful behavior, it should be easy for you to see that your statement is false (although I don't expect you to admit this).

MM: My observations are not false. I said their response is “tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness.” In never said it is “not sinful”.

……………………….

TE: That fruit follows faith agrees with the perspective that I've been sharing. That one must perform a bunch of rules on a list before being magically empowered by Jesus seems different to me. Why can't we just say that what's needed is faith, and that faith will be demonstrated by its fruit (such as the things on your list)? Are the items of the list prerequisites, or fruit?

TE: Why can't we say the magic continues as long as we have faith? Why aren't the things on the list the fruit of faith?

MM: We’re talking about the relationship between faith and works. By faith we “partake of the divine nature”, and it is the divine nature, not faith, that empowers us to think, speak, and behave like Jesus, things which include the “list”.

………………………….

TE: What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus? Can you be born again and not abide in Jesus?

MM: Born again people can choose not to abide in Jesus, but they would not be able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. They would be “born again” in name only.

HP 20
In order to be saved, we must know by experience the meaning of true conversion. It is a fearful mistake for men and women to go on day by day professing to be Christians yet having no right to the name. In God's sight profession is nothing, position is nothing. He asks, Is the life in harmony with My precepts? There are many who suppose that they are converted but who are not able to bear the test of character presented in the Word of God. {HP 20.2}

…………………………

TE: The problem I see is if you don't understand something, you assume that it can't be understood, as opposed to thinking that you just don't understand it. IOW, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean no one can understand it. The fact that you find something to be a mystery and unexplainable doesn't mean it really is unexplainable. It could just be that you don't know how to explain it.

MM: This principle does not apply to those things we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” Eternity isn’t long enough for us to exhaust it. Not even the angels have it all figured out.

AA 272
Here must begin that study which shall be the science and the song of the redeemed through all eternity. In the light of the cross alone can the true value of the human soul be estimated. {AA 273.1}

5T 317
But the theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the ransomed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. {5T 317.2}

TE: The problem is that John says that one who is born again does not sin. He does not qualify that by saying "who abides in Jesus." He just simply states, flat out, a person who is born again cannot sin. He cannot sin because he is born again (that's the reason John gives). Even if he doesn't abide in Jesus, he cannot sin, so long as he is born again (this is the logical conclusion of the statement that one who is born again cannot sin). The reason he cannot sin is because he is born again, not because he abides in Jesus.

MM: Are you suggesting that 1 John 3:9 implies born again believers do not abide in Jesus? It says he does not sin “for his seed remaineth in him.”

I don't know why you're having such a hard time with this. The text says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." It doesn't say anything one way or the other about abiding in Jesus. Verse 6 talks about abiding in Jesus, not verse 9. The reason John gives that one cannot sin is "because he has been born of God." John does not say, "because he abides in Jesus."

………………………

TET: We haven't been considering the question of selfishness, so there's no reason to bring that up. We've been discussing the idea that before being born again one can only exhibit sinful behavior, which is what you were saying. Now if a person responds to the Holy Spirit before being born again, and this response is not sinful behavior, it should be easy for you to see that your statement is false (although I don't expect you to admit this).

MM: My observations are not false. I said their response is “tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness.” In never said it is “not sinful”.

MM, you're not following things here. Here's what happened:

TE:This is a very different thing than saying that a person can do nothing but sin. Neither of these texts is discussing your point of view.

MM: Tom, are you implying that an unbelieving sinner can do good works? What is the origin and source of his good works?

TE:I'm "implying" just what I said. People, before they are born again, can make right decisions, in accordance with God's will.

You took issue with this. I have proven that your idea is wrong, and what I said is true. I proved this by asking you if the confession of sin which takes place when the Holy Spirit convicts of sin is itself sinfful behavior. You said it wasn't. The part about being tainted with selfishness was something you added later, and was not what I was addressing.

The idea of yours that is false is that before one is born again one can do nothing but sin.



By your own words, before a person is born again, they are capable of not doing sinful things.

……………………….

TE: That fruit follows faith agrees with the perspective that I've been sharing. That one must perform a bunch of rules on a list before being magically empowered by Jesus seems different to me. Why can't we just say that what's needed is faith, and that faith will be demonstrated by its fruit (such as the things on your list)? Are the items of the list prerequisites, or fruit?

TE: Why can't we say the magic continues as long as we have faith? Why aren't the things on the list the fruit of faith?

MM: We’re talking about the relationship between faith and works. By faith we “partake of the divine nature”, and it is the divine nature, not faith, that empowers us to think, speak, and behave like Jesus, things which include the “list”.

This isn't addressing the point. The things on the list were pre-requisities of abiding in Jesus, and not exhaustive. So in order to abide in Jesus, one must do all the things mentioned, and more. I'm asking, why not just say that what a person needs to abide in Jesus is have faith. If the divine nature produces things on the list, that's irrelevant. It would still go faith leads to the things on the list. So why not just say that what's needed to abide in Jesus is faith?

………………………….

TE: What's the difference between being born again and abiding in Jesus? Can you be born again and not abide in Jesus?

MM: Born again people can choose not to abide in Jesus, but they would not be able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. They would be “born again” in name only.

But John says that one who is born again cannot sin. So how can they choose not to abide in Jesus, since choosing not to abide in Jesus would lead to sin?

HP 20
In order to be saved, we must know by experience the meaning of true conversion. It is a fearful mistake for men and women to go on day by day professing to be Christians yet having no right to the name. In God's sight profession is nothing, position is nothing. He asks, Is the life in harmony with My precepts? There are many who suppose that they are converted but who are not able to bear the test of character presented in the Word of God. {HP 20.2}

…………………………

TE: The problem I see is if you don't understand something, you assume that it can't be understood, as opposed to thinking that you just don't understand it. IOW, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean no one can understand it. The fact that you find something to be a mystery and unexplainable doesn't mean it really is unexplainable. It could just be that you don't know how to explain it.

MM: This principle does not apply to those things we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” Eternity isn’t long enough for us to exhaust it. Not even the angels have it all figured out.

AA 272
Here must begin that study which shall be the science and the song of the redeemed through all eternity. In the light of the cross alone can the true value of the human soul be estimated. {AA 273.1}

5T 317
But the theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the ransomed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. {5T 317.2}

Your response here has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what I said. What I was pointing out is that you often use expressions like "It's a mystery" to address things that you don't understand, instead of saying, for example, "I don't know." You assume that because you don't know something, or can't explain something, that nobody else can know it or explain it.

Here is something for you all to chew on.

And more:

TE: The text says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." It doesn't say anything one way or the other about abiding in Jesus. Verse 6 talks about abiding in Jesus, not verse 9. The reason John gives that one cannot sin is "because he has been born of God." John does not say, "because he abides in Jesus."

MM: Are you suggesting that verse 9 implies born again believers do not abide in Jesus? Also, it says they do not sin “for {or because} his seed remaineth in him.” Doesn’t this mean “his seed” is what empowers born again believers not to sin? Here’s what the Bible says about the “seed”.



The instant people complete the “long, patient, protracted process” of conversion, God, at that precise moment, implants within them the sinless seed of the new man and, at that precise moment, there is a radical, instantaneous change. This change is described in the following quote:



TE: By your own words, before a person is born again, they are capable of not doing sinful things.

MM: Here’s what I wrote about it:



MM: We’re talking about the relationship between faith and works. By faith we “partake of the divine nature”, and it is the divine nature, not faith, that empowers us to think, speak, and behave like Jesus, things which include the “list”.

TE: This isn't addressing the point. The things on the list were pre-requisities of abiding in Jesus, and not exhaustive. So in order to abide in Jesus, one must do all the things mentioned, and more. I'm asking, why not just say that what a person needs to abide in Jesus is have faith. If the divine nature produces things on the list, that's irrelevant. It would still go faith leads to the things on the list. So why not just say that what's needed to abide in Jesus is faith?

MM: Okay, by faith we abide in Jesus. That’s how we abide in Jesus, but it doesn’t explain what it “means” to abide in Jesus. The “list” wasn’t prerequisites; instead, it describes what it means to abide in Jesus ad what it means to continue abiding in Jesus.



MM: Born again people can choose not to abide in Jesus, but they would not be able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. They would be “born again” in name only.

TE: But John says that one who is born again cannot sin. So how can they choose not to abide in Jesus, since choosing not to abide in Jesus would lead to sin?

MM: Choosing not to abide in Jesus is not a sin, rather it leads to sinning. We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. We cannot be partially born again. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) “No man can serve two masters.” (Matthew 6:24) “None of us can occupy a neutral position; our influence will tell for or against. We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad.” (4T 16)

……………………………

TE: What I was pointing out is that you often use expressions like "It's a mystery" to address things that you don't understand, instead of saying, for example, "I don't know." You assume that because you don't know something, or can't explain something, that nobody else can know it or explain it.

MM: Tom, there are aspects of salvation that we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” Eternity isn’t long enough for us to exhaust it. Not even the angels have it all figured out.

AA 272
Here must begin that study which shall be the science and the song of the redeemed through all eternity. In the light of the cross alone can the true value of the human soul be estimated. {AA 273.1}

5T 317
But the theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the ransomed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. {5T 317.2}

Thomas, what do you think your quotes teach us about perfecting character?

TE: The text says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." It doesn't say anything one way or the other about abiding in Jesus. Verse 6 talks about abiding in Jesus, not verse 9. The reason John gives that one cannot sin is "because he has been born of God." John does not say, "because he abides in Jesus."

MM: Are you suggesting that verse 9 implies born again believers do not abide in Jesus? Also, it says they do not sin “for {or because} his seed remaineth in him.” Doesn’t this mean “his seed” is what empowers born again believers not to sin? Here’s what the Bible says about the “seed”.

Quote:
Luke
8:8 And other {seed} fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold.
8:11 The seed is the word of God.

1 Peter
1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


The instant people complete the “long, patient, protracted process” of conversion, God, at that precise moment, implants within them the sinless seed of the new man and, at that precise moment, there is a radical, instantaneous change. This change is described in the following quote:

Quote:
4T 17
True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ. (4T 17)

6BC 1101
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. (6 BC 1101)

TDG 186
New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity. (TDG 186)

SC 60, 61
But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience. {SC 60.2}

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. {SC 61.1}

You wrote, "The instant people complete the “long, patient, protracted process” of conversion, God, at that precise moment, implants within them the sinless seed of the new man and, at that precise moment, there is a radical, instantaneous change." After this happens, they are born again, and cannot sin. That's what the text says, correct?

Here's what I've been pointing out.
a.You say a born again person cannot sin as long as they abide in Jesus. They can choose not to abide in Jesus.
b.John says a born again person cannot sin. Period. No qualification.




TE: By your own words, before a person is born again, they are capable of not doing sinful things.

MM: Here’s what I wrote about it:

Quote:
MM: Not necessarily. The influence of the Holy Spirit is powerful during the process of conversion. It can motivate people to give up certain sinful habits before they actually crucify them. It can also motivate them to adopt certain behaviors that are good. But before they begin partaking of the divine nature everything they do is tainted, in one way or another, with selfishness.

SC 17
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. {SC 27.1}

SC 58
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

This isn't all you've said about it. You've been saying for a long time that a person who is not born again can do nothing but sin. As I stated, this is what I showed was false.


MM: We’re talking about the relationship between faith and works. By faith we “partake of the divine nature”, and it is the divine nature, not faith, that empowers us to think, speak, and behave like Jesus, things which include the “list”.

TE: This isn't addressing the point. The things on the list were pre-requisities of abiding in Jesus, and not exhaustive. So in order to abide in Jesus, one must do all the things mentioned, and more. I'm asking, why not just say that what a person needs to abide in Jesus is have faith. If the divine nature produces things on the list, that's irrelevant. It would still go faith leads to the things on the list. So why not just say that what's needed to abide in Jesus is faith?

MM: Okay, by faith we abide in Jesus. That’s how we abide in Jesus, but it doesn’t explain what it “means” to abide in Jesus. The “list” wasn’t prerequisites; instead, it describes what it means to abide in Jesus ad what it means to continue abiding in Jesus.

In order to abide in Jesus, is it necessary to have faith? (that wasn't on the list). How is what you believe any different than saying that a born again person cannot sin unless he chooses to sin?

Quote:
MM: They will not commit a known sin, repeat a former sinful habit, nor will they cultivate new sinful habits, while abiding in Jesus.

TE: Which means what? That is, what does "abiding in Jesus" mean?

MM: Jesus explained what it means by using the vine-branch metaphor. He also said, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)

This is circular, right? I mentioned this. If to abide in Jesus means to keep His commandments, and sinning is breaking the commandment, then what you are saying is that as long as you keep the commandments (abide in Jesus) you can't break them (sin).

MM: Again, what I believe abiding in Jesus means, in practical terms, is 1) to decide to “die daily”, 2) to continue claiming His promises, 3) to keep on choosing to behold Christ and Him crucified, 4) to fight the good fight of faith, and then, like magic, we are empowered to be like Jesus – kind, loving, patient, compassionate, righteous, obedient, a faithful witness, etc.


MM: Born again people can choose not to abide in Jesus, but they would not be able to think, speak, and behave like Jesus. They would be “born again” in name only.

TE: But John says that one who is born again cannot sin. So how can they choose not to abide in Jesus, since choosing not to abide in Jesus would lead to sin?

MM: Choosing not to abide in Jesus is not a sin, rather it leads to sinning. We are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. We cannot be partially born again. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” (Romans 8:9) “No man can serve two masters.” (Matthew 6:24) “None of us can occupy a neutral position; our influence will tell for or against. We are active agents for Christ or for the enemy. We either gather with Jesus or scatter abroad.” (4T 16)

You say "we are sinning if we are not abiding in Jesus." John said that one who is born of God cannot sin. So how can one who is born of God not abide in Jesus? You don't see the contradiction here?

……………………………

TE: What I was pointing out is that you often use expressions like "It's a mystery" to address things that you don't understand, instead of saying, for example, "I don't know." You assume that because you don't know something, or can't explain something, that nobody else can know it or explain it.

MM: Tom, there are aspects of salvation that we cannot explain. “The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” Eternity isn’t long enough for us to exhaust it. Not even the angels have it all figured out.

What I was pointing out is that you use expressions such as "It's a mystery" (e.g. in relation to your comments about how God treated Jesus at the cross, as if He were sin, which He hates) and "no explanation is given" when what would be more accurate is "I don't know." The fact that you personally don't know or understand something does not mean that the thing you don't know or understand is unknowable or not understandable.

You cannot prove the statement "All things like A are B" by providing an example where A is B. You make these arguments a lot.

AA 272
Here must begin that study which shall be the science and the song of the redeemed through all eternity. In the light of the cross alone can the true value of the human soul be estimated. {AA 273.1}

5T 317
But the theme of redemption is one that the angels desire to look into; it will be the science and the song of the ransomed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. {5T 317.2}

Did you chew on it yet or are you asking me to do it for you?

Thomas, I already know what I believe about it. I wasn't sure why you posted them.